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-   -   RPGWatch Feature - Torment: Tides of Numenera Review (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35935)

luj1 March 18th, 2017 01:43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindicator (Post 1061440806)
Except for a handful of fights, combat was optional.
To be fair this is not entirely true. Baator was 100% unavoidable combat. You needed to plow through several groups of abishai demons before reaching the Pillar (which is the end of the road). Carceri was around 80% unavoidable combat. You can't avoid the Gehreleths in the streets just as you could not have avoided the abishai in Baator.

Pladio March 18th, 2017 01:51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kordanor (Post 1061440711)
Did not read through the comments, just two things I'd like to mention here:



I'd say the opposite. It basically makes no difference what you chose to play. Because the game is mostly about the stat pools and your amount of resources there is almost unlimited. So it really does not matter what character choices you take. In the end even the worst fighter will be able to do all the fights (which wont matter anyways, as you can just bypass them or progress if you lose them) and even the most unskillfull character will be able to succeed in all dialogues by just using pools from the companions.
And as mentioned before: Failing often has better rewards than succeeding. So thats another option.
The lack of meaning to character choice is also why I see absolutely no replay value there. (the game has some replay value, but this is due to selection of answers and companions). And that's also a big con of the game imho: All the combat based items and cyphers and all the character skill decisions basically do not interact well with the game and feel tucked on.

Speaking of companions:


I though the companions have a lot of personality actually. I played with Rhin, Matkina and Callistege. And while they didn't have so many discussions with the main character, no other game comes to my mind where these characters brought themselves that often into random dialogues. Talk about killing or assasins: Matkina will contribute. Talk about science: Callistege will add to the dialogue. Talk about morale choices, Rhin might contribute. Also I felt that all these characters had quite some profile. They weren't just husks with some stats but real characters with a backstory and personality.

Edit: Another thing to add would be the bugs, which are still present in this version of the game. Like the annoying sound effect caused by an passive aura which forces you to switch the zone once each time you load the game. Or the crashes / freezes in some combats with too many combatants.


It's so strange to read this.

All of the bad reviews for Age of Decadence were due to people hating being gated off content due to skill development.

It looks like this is the opposite, where there is no reason to develop your character at all.

Personally I prefer the way Iron Tower Studios did it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kordanor March 18th, 2017 02:24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pladio (Post 1061440811)
It's so strange to read this.

All of the bad reviews for Age of Decadence were due to people hating being gated off content due to skill development.

It looks like this is the opposite, where there is no reason to develop your character at all.

Personally I prefer the way Iron Tower Studios did it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That sounds interesting. Haven't played Age of Decadence yet (still hoping for a German Fan mod). But it will be interesting to see how that feels.

The issue I have with Torment is that, as none of your character decisions matter, the effects also never give any satisfaction. Basically most of the time failing a skillcheck needs to be a concious decision in Torment.

joxer March 18th, 2017 03:14
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440807)
Each of these remarks is kind of beside the point, though…

You're speaking of how players could by-pass this issue, and not addressing the issue. (companions' help + Effort resource mechanic = taking away from traditional character building)
I'm not talking about bypassing any issues. I don't see any issue to be honest except the one I've mentioned. Cyphers mechanics.
Anyway, I was souring the milk. Here, because I'm not registered at some "VIP" sites. Perhaps if you reread it, you could spot the point. You shouldn't bother though, IMO, the game is IMO at least good (didn't finish it yet to say more).

luj1 March 18th, 2017 04:25
Joxer it is a fine RPG, indeed, but I'm surprised a veteran like you doesn't see any issues. Cyphers are marginal. (though I'll agree they seem underdeveloped)


Quote:
Two features in the system almost entirely invalidate any character-building choices you might want to make: Effort, and the possibility to use any party member for almost any skill check.
Which means,

Quote:
This means that all you have to do to guarantee success in all skill checks past the first hour or so of the game is to specialise one of your party members in each stat, and then pick the right one for each check. This is beyond bad cRPG system design, it’s downright ridiculous – enjoyable only for players who want to feel awesome all the time, invariably succeeding at everything to which they turn their hand.

luj1 March 18th, 2017 04:50
Now this is a core fault in RPG design. A grave, grave error. Furthermore, it's painfully visible from the very start of the game. So I don't even want to talk about Cyphers, a side dish. This is a central issue.

I want to be fair here, but a poster tried to inform you Joxer and you just said, Nope, yet provided us with methods to circumvent this issue, like Don't use companions or whatever. Everyone knows that. In any case, this article also failed to notice the pink elephant sitting in the room, and I hate to say this to Corwin, but this is a timid, timid PREVIEW, and has no characteristics that belong in a REVIEW.

Incase anyone cares the quoted part is from a *cough* rival website.

Corwin March 18th, 2017 04:59
First, I wrote a Preview quite some time ago. Second, this is clearly a REVIEW from MY PoV!!!! One of the most difficult aspects of writing this review was to avoid spoilers as much as possible, therefore I dealt primarily with aspects of the game which did not include spoilers. Your concern about Effort, addresses playstyle much more than design IMO!! Anyone can 'game a game'; look at how many min/max players there are. Adding effort is not really that dissimilar to adding extra power to an attack, or a spell and doing so, lowers your stat pool much more quickly, just like over-charging a spell drains more mana. It's all about wise use of your available resources. Sorry, but I didn't see the use of Effort as an issue!! And after-all, it is my review and therefore my opinion. Feel free to write your own review and see if Myrthos is willing to publish it!!!! :)

Kordanor March 18th, 2017 05:13
I think it almost comes down to what some people asked about Games like Stanley Parable, Gone Home or even The Walking Dead: Are these "Games" actually >games<?
As they basically have no real gameplay elements. Gone Home was also called a walking "Simulator".
Now of course it's just a question of definition what you want to call a game and what not.
But I think Torment is pretty much in the very same corner. With one difference: It pretends to be more of a game, than the beforementioned games do by adding things which look like elements of typical RPGs, but which in fact serve almost no use in Torment.

I am not saying that Torment is terrible. But I think it's important to show a really big warning sign here, especially for people who expect more of a cRPG. While you might want to call Torment a cRPG, Torment is as far away of being one as games like "Dishonored" or "The Book of Unwritten Tales" are.

Ripper March 18th, 2017 05:24
With the original Torment, they took the Baldurs Gate gameplay, and used it as a vehicle to tell a good narrative. Some hardcore RPGers at the time didn't really like the tight narrative structure, but I think it worked. It had a fair bit of combat (too much "trash combat" by some accounts), but that was necessary in order to make the progression mechanics meaningful, in what was essentially a combat RPG.

The problem here seems to be that they've reinvented the gameplay, but kept the trappings of a combat RPG progression system, perhaps in a way that is little more than window dressing.

Vindicator March 18th, 2017 06:23
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440808)
To be fair this is not entirely true. Baator was 100% unavoidable combat…
Take a look at this guy's 20-minute speedrun.
Like I said, except for a handful of fights, combat can be avoided.

luj1 March 18th, 2017 16:29
Err, that's not a part of the game's design Vindicator.

The guy who is speed-running in the video uses a trick to bypass Baator entirely. Right away he used Anna to kill the Nameless One, which respawned the party directly in front of the Pillar - which is the end of the Baator segment.

Just because there are tricks and exploits which circumvent trash-mobs doesn't mean Torment games are more like an interactive fantasy novel, like you said, only Tides of Numenera apparently is.

wolfgrimdark March 18th, 2017 16:50
I think Corwin made an excellent point. Anyone can "game a game" and all the power-gamers, the min/maxers, will find ways to take advantage of things in most any game. I didn't have any issues with the effort aspect of the mechanics. I did use companions now and then but it also decreased their points and was something I had to take into consideration.

Deleted User March 18th, 2017 17:05
As I get older I really just like rolling with an RPG and not trying to game the system. Maybe as a kid on a second or third run of a game I would min/max it, but I find it's way more enjoyable to not even read about how to game the system, and then just avoid doing it at all in an RPG I'm playing.

Maybe it's just me but I've also grown quite fund of RNG and random events happening in RPGs. I'm trying to be less of a control freak about it. I'm also still waiting for an RPG to start adding "Live With Your Consequences Mode", which would be an option you can set that would autosave after you make any important decisions. I would find something like that quite interesting nowadays. Closest I get to that is using a "house rule" to roll with the punches, for example in my Gothic 2 Let's Play.

I know this is a total sidetrack and I apologize, but I also think a game like Gothic that often throws curveballs at you would be great for the mode I described. Imagine if you had to carefully consider taking quests as they could turn out badly for you. Remember one of the early quests in the Old Camp where you had to "retrieve an amulet"? Yeah, that would be much worse (in a good way) if you had to live with your consequences. :)

Farflame March 18th, 2017 17:10
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440834)
Two features in the system almost entirely invalidate any character-building choices you might want to make: Effort, and the possibility to use any party member for almost any skill check.

This means that all you have to do to guarantee success in all skill checks past the first hour or so of the game is to specialise one of your party members in each stat, and then pick the right one for each check. This is beyond bad cRPG system design, it’s downright ridiculous – enjoyable only for players who want to feel awesome all the time, invariably succeeding at everything to which they turn their hand.
That quote is nonsensical and invalid. It would be somewhat valid if he would say that skill checks seems to be too low and easy. But the way how it works is NOT guarantee of success. And specialisation in party-based RPGs is common thing, thats actually one of the core ideas that everyone is good in something or could be good in something. The way how he describe it… "you pick right one for each check" like it was something magical and never seen before… is ridiculous and stupid. It looks like some crap from ING or Gamespot or something. Corwin already has valid point and I agree with him.

luj1 March 18th, 2017 17:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark (Post 1061440891)
I think Corwin made an excellent point. Anyone can "game a game" and all the power-gamers, the min/maxers, will find ways to take advantage of things in most any game. I didn't have any issues with the effort aspect of the mechanics. I did use companions now and then but it also decreased their points and was something I had to take into consideration.
You are of course right in that players will find ways to take advantage of things in any game. And it has never been easier than in Numenera!

You are encouraged to use Effort to ensure success. You're also given the ability to use companions for most skill checks. I'm guessing inXile didn't want to risk the casuals getting angry because the game is too hard. But inXile also made it hard for traditional RPG players, those who desire a challenge, to abstain from using these core-features.

It's (unbelievably) bad RPG design.

joxer March 18th, 2017 17:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440834)
Joxer it is a fine RPG, indeed, but I'm surprised a veteran like you doesn't see any issues. Cyphers are marginal. (though I'll agree they seem underdeveloped)
A veteran? Sure. I'm Sims veteran. :D

Cyphers are not marginal, I say those are overpowered and fatigue mechanics is meh aka not punishing at all. Whatever you spec your character (and sidekicks) into, all you need is cyphers to get past anything. Solo or not, the game's biggest issue IMO is cyphers2win system.
You on the other hand do not see it for whatever reason.

And you don't read what I said or refuse to accept. In numerous occassions you cannot use sidekicks in skillchecks. In combat chatty you cannot use others in skillchecks only the one who's into a dialogue. And failing a skillcheck many times is not punishing, sometimes it nets you a better "reward" than passing the skillcheck.
Not only that, perception unlocked dialogues from what I've seen count only on main character. I've even written what happened when I upped my protagonist's Perception to +2.

The pink elephant in the room is prejudice coming from Codex because of some failed visit/interview whatever.
No, the game does not suck as Codex suggests. I'm not saying it's brilliant either as I didn't finish it yet. But it's a far better game than Codex suggests and one more I backed on Kickstarter that doesn't disappoint (the only one among dozens I backed that did disappoint me so far is Earthlock).

Being fair can mean many things. In this case, IMO being fair means dropping a prejudice coming from angered people and think about it yourself. You don't have to agree with me about cyphers being overpowered, hell you don't even have to use them at all in the game, but at the same time it contradicts your solo/party thoughts.
Torment2 is a game that allows you to choose how and what to play. IMO it succeeds in it. Sure, not in the best way ever designed, but does it mean it's a bad game? No.

Vindicator March 18th, 2017 23:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440889)
Err, that's not a part of the game's design Vindicator.
…Just because there are tricks and exploits which circumvent trash-mobs doesn't mean Torment games are more like an interactive fantasy novel, like you said, only Tides of Numenera apparently is.
I never said all combat could be avoided. Yes, that guy used a trick or two, but running or sneaking past the enemy is NOT an exploit. It's been many years since I played it, but I don't remember much combat in the game, especially compared to the amount of time I spent reading, and I never used any tricks or cheats. Your experience might've been different, depending on your play style, dialogue choices, stats, etc.

BTW, people have been comparing Planescape: Torment to an interactive novel since it was released in 1999. Just try googling: "Planescape:Torment interactive novel"

luj1 March 19th, 2017 00:40
Well sure, Baldur's Gate or Fallout could also be treated as interactive novels. So could Morrowind. So could many a narrative-driven, rich RPG. I don't think PST is alone in this regard.

My position is that, as Ripper already pointed out, with PST they took the Baldur's Gate gameplay, but used a much weirder setting as a storytelling medium. Numenera is definitely a successor in weirdness, but doesn't have nearly as much combat encounters as PST has had. Which I'm completely fine with.

Vindicator March 19th, 2017 02:04
Quote:
Originally Posted by luj1 (Post 1061440951)
Well sure, Baldur's Gate or Fallout could also be treated as interactive novels….
Yes, while PS:T was more verbose, all of those games had novel length scripts.
PS:T had 75K lines of dialog and over 1M words, BG had 23K lines and Fallout had 20K lines. But I would never call BG or Fallout an interactive novel. They were combat-driven games while PS:T was story-driven. It's hard to quantify, but I believe both had at least 20 times the number of combat encounters vs PS:T.

Corwin March 19th, 2017 05:34
In PS:T, you usually got MORE XP for avoiding combat, than for killing stuff. I had very few fights in the game, but there were always opportunities for combat if that was your wish. In T:TON, the XP is the same whether you avoid combat, or not. I chose to avoid it wherever possible; that's just how I like to play and it suited my Nano character to do so. If I played as a Glaive, then I would likely take every combat opportunity which presented itself.


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