Torment:ToN - Interview @ RPGCodex
 

Our friends at the Codex (who can be real drama queens sometimes) are talking with inXile Entertainment again:

More information.

A very long and interesting interview despite the "drama." Confirms that Torment is a commercial failure, and discusses the development problems. I still haven't gotten the game started, so I'm interested how much I'll like it.

Sometimes? :p

Yeah. And what "friends"? :biggrin:

I do appreciate this candid insight into the problems that occurred during development, it explains an awful lot. Not "excuses", but at least "explains".

I haven't started playing yet. I want to wait for the cut content they said they would restore. Despite it being (from what I hear) far below its potential, I still hope for a good gaming experience, even if it falls short of what was initially promised.

I wouldn't be so sure it's far below potential, as some of the people who played and reviewed it called it a masterpiece. Brian talks a bit about that in this interview even. The people who like the game *really* like it and it received some perfect 10 scores from reviewers.

I think one part in this interview is really telling, and that is the bit when the interviewer asks why certain mechanics weren't in the game, and the response is that they are, it's just that the game doesn't do a lot to inform you of that. In other words, this game seems devilishly complex, but there is no bright flashing sign telling you that, so I think some people assume it isn't complex and miss that bit of it. Brian mentions that the RPG choices and consequences Inxile is doing in these games is some of the deepest stuff in the industry right now, but because it isn't conveyed to the player, a lot of folks seem to miss it.

Interesting stuff. I have to get to this game sometime as I think it would be interesting, and certainly way different than any other RPG out right now.

Yes, with artwork it can be difficult to tell sometimes. I remember Blade Runner receiving mixed reviews on release; now it's considered a classic.

Yep. And this has all the makings of being the same type of thing. That's also why I agree that this will be a "slow burn" for Inxile and make money in the long run.

"It’s 1.6 million words, probably a world record for a single player game." So what?? Is that something to be proud of? Does that mean that the game is entertaining? Or that it has a good story? Or it means that it is a good game? Why don't they just copy the Twilight saga books in the game and call it a day? If all that matters is the number of words.

Sure it's something to be proud of. It's something no game has ever done. No one is implying that is all that matters in the game, that would be ridiculous.

Out of the 98 critic reviews on Metacritic (from all platforms), the highest score is 95/100. So who are all these 10 reviewers that you and Brian are referring to?

Brash Games gave the game a 10/10. - http://www.brashgames.co.uk/2017/02/…menera-review/

Gaming On PC also gave it a 10/10. - http://www.gamingonpc.com/reviews/to…menera-review/

A quick look at Meta/Opencritic doesn't show any other 10s, so I'd have to ask Brian about that. I see a lot of 8.5+ and 9+s.

http://opencritic.com/game/3728/torm…numenera?tab=1

OK, so two 10 reviews from a couple of sites too obscure to even be listed on Metacritic, out of >100 reviews. Not sure that's worth bragging about in an interview really.

Dragon Age 2 even has a 10/10 review on Metacritic (from The Escapist :lol:). Even No Man's Sky has a 10/10 there.

Almost like that thread on codex about cancelled Fargo interview.
More interesting to read too. :P

He wasn't bragging about it, he was answering a question. The point he was making was that some people really liked the game, and he feels that certain "other" factors influenced a lot of the negative reviews on Steam and such. Can't say I disagree there as many reviews nowadays, especially of the user variety are heavily tinged by factors that don't even really relate to the game itself. That's just the internet today.

Strawman argument. He never said that all that matters is the number of words. It's as if you never read the rest of the interview beyond the word count, duh!

Ugh, the codex interviewer sounds like they are talking about a lover or something at the end, when they are going on and on about the relationship of rpg codex with Brian Fargo, and using words like "forgiveness" and "trust". Jesus Christ, how cringe-worthy can they get.

Lastly, to me its disappointing how Fargo seems to be going to the rpg codex on "bended knee", (like how he apologizes over and over in that interview, ugh). I say that in the context of having seen some of the crap that rpg codex wrote about him, and they even had creepy stalking of the dude going on, not kidding, I saw it in a thread in their forum…If it was me, I would never have given the time of day to that site ever again. But that's me, and I'm not a CEO, and I get this is probably really about a P.R. effort to appease the codex trolls to increase sales for future games.

Sounds like you are confusing some of their forum members with the site as a whole. Quite different. The Codex is essentially a free speech zone, so every person with an account there can say whatever they want, no one's going to delete their posts or tell them to shut up. If anything, the admins/newsposters, such as Infinitron, have been extremely nice to inXile, certainly far more than is deserved.

Well, I don't have much of an opinion of the codex community, let's put it that way. And there are lines that most people with common sense understand, and what I saw in one of their threads was way beyond those lines, I'm talking straight up stalking material on Fargo. These idiots are probably lucky they didn't actually get in serious trouble for some of that crap. The mods and/or the site admins should have deleted that thread, if they had any common sense. That whole site maybe could have been sued into oblivion for some of that crap that was going on…(stalking is a legit crime in many states now, including cyber-stalking)

Anyway, not going to debate this, this is just my opinion. (except for the stalking stuff, which is based on fact - I actually know a lot about it because I studied it recently for a class I'm taking)

Like it or not, the Codex is important for indie RPG developers right now, being it's one of the largest active RPG communities* on the web. I'm sure Brian realizes that, and nothing more really needs to be said about that.

*If you consider the Nine Hells of Baator a "community". :D

I am a fan of the codex. Yes there are some stupid posters but I know how to filter that stuff. As Stingray said it's free speech zone and those seem rare these days. For me it's the most reliable site to get in depth information about games. I like this site too and go to them both.

Not sure if I will play this game though; reviews pretty mixed and not a big fan of the setting. Backed W2 and Bards tale IV though.

Well, the Codex has more than a fair share of shitposters and people who are aggressive to others for a multitude of reasons of varying stupidity, but guys, seriously, don't you think you just can't read a similar interview anywhere else?

I wish people wouldn't glorify the codex as a 'free speech zone' like it's actually a healthy representation of conflicting ideas and debate. That's all well and good in theory but we all know that when people are encouraged to speak their mind on the internet, especially gamers, with none of the social nuance of real life interaction, that it's just going to result in disproportionate amounts of racism and homophobia (particularly the latter). Throw in the fact that the whole website encourages this 'edgy' persona and essentially encourages bitterness, bigotry and negativity and it just becomes a horrible place for a gay person to visit because we know that any thread you go on there'll be someone saying something vile about gay people which will also have a ton of likes. But it's ok because they have a token gay moderator, right?

There's a difference in being offended because someone referred to a woman as a 'female' and being offended because there's a 30+ page dedicated topic about how Tim Cain is gay and how disgusting that is.

I thought the interview itself was informative. Didn't realize sales were so poor. they also answered one question - the count (100K) is 100K + kickstarter - so probably not a big $$ loss but still not very healthy. I suspect unless sales pick up there won't be a lot of support :(

Well, that's offensive, we don't need that buddy. It's hardly an argument. It was an observation because it is not the first time I read that kind of statement. Sorry if I offend anyone. Fargo is not the first to say "we have more than xxx million words". I think that Josh Sawyer said something similar about PoE some time ago. It bothers me. And no, I still think that it is not something to be proud of, even if no other game has done it before. Because the quality of the game is not about breaking the world's record. But if they speak about the number of words as an advertisement or as a reason to buy the game, it's because there are people who think that "#_of_words = quality". And that's simply not true.

I still haven't played ToN. I'm waiting to get cheaper since Wasteland 2 was a let down for me. But I have played PoE a lot, and IMHO I wish they had focused on delivering a better storyline than to focused in the number of words, even though I enjoyed PoE.

The Codex has gays, jews, muslims, people of many races, and even women (allegedly). And they all enjoy slinging mud at each other in between talking about RPGs. Nobody is forcing them to stay there. If it's so intolerant why has it attracted such a wide spectrum of contributors? Perhaps it's because they're not presumptuous enough to try and be offended on other people's behalf and don't take themselves too seriously.

If you don't like it then there are plenty of sites that will spare your feelings, like this one, but pretending it's unhealthy just because you personally don't like it is exactly the sort of attitude that will get you ridiculed on the Codex, not because you may or may not be gay, jewish, or from the planet Jupiter.

It's driving me nuts that every game dev on Kickstarter seemed to have to learn this themselves.

OH! That's a good point. Rip all but the 20 most important fights out Baldur's Gate and it's going to be a far shorter game. If the battle system is fun then the "trash mobs" should be pretty fun, too, but that isn't what Torment was aiming for.

Now isn't that interesting? I'm pretty sure it was very positive in its early days, too, and the critics sure liked it. It sounds like the folks who got burned by all those dropped features really loved the game. It's the folks that came later that didn't. Were the early birds just more invested in the game? Were the late comers, as Brian said, expecting it to be like other games then trashed it because it wasn't what they thought?

But the bit I'm more interested in (and wasn't answered) was the fact that all the most helpful reviews in the past 30 days are all negative. I just checked and it's true today, too. Yet that "mixed" result is actually 69% positive and that is reflected over on the right with the 'most recent' reviews. I just checked a few of my own Steam games and they've all got a higher percentage of negative 'helpful' reviews than the most recent reviews. (The exception being Kerbal Space Program which has nothing but positives right now.)

That system of tracking helpful reviews is pretty easily abused and, given the space Steam gives to the 'helpful' reviews compared to the recent reviews, I think people are going to give more weight to those reviews. Tell people that a game is not going to be good and they are far more likely to find fault with the game.

In the future, we will be much more careful about detailing the specifics.

Cool. Then we're even because in the future some of the backers will also be much more careful about who they are giving their money to… especially if the pitch is intentionally kept vague. I, for one, will not back any inXile project again (nor any other crowdfunding project except for Larian's games :) ).

I really wanted to like the game, but it really is a failure.


Props to Codex for getting the interview, as always.

lol @ Fargo apologizing to the 'Dex xD

We are also in the era of "bombing" review sites, forums and anywhere trolls can disrupt things with negativity. A lot of times it's not even related to the game, but rather a personal agenda or just something they find amusing. It is interesting, for sure. The trolls mess with people's money with an anonymous face. I wonder how long until powers that be crack down on such things.

This is a bit vague. Are they basing this on sales, reviews, or personal opinion? Maybe all three?

Sales, it's discussed in the interview.

Every game has trolls, especially popular ones, which provoke "retaliation" from fans of "rival" series.
But they have little impact, compared to how vocal they are. Recent games like Last of Us, Witcher or Horizon still have extremely high user ratings, despite the MC troll bombing.
They can lower the ratings, but not to this extent.

Little impact on hugely popular games with big budgets for marketing and tons of fans, maybe. For indie games like this, negative and trolling "bombs" on Steam forums and review sites are much more damaging.

Props for this post, very well said. I don't agree with much of what the mainstream media reports but you know what? I just don't watch it. I guess I should deem it unhealthy then.

Makes me wonder about Kickstarter to be honest. So far I have got a couple of good games out of it but now I don't have much time and with so many games coming out I have a backlog. So why back a game for 50$ when. I won't have time to play for years? Might as well wait if it's going to be made anyway.

I'll play wasteland 3 and Divinity OS 2 eventually but didn't back either. I guess the rewards are just not worth it to me personally.

Lately I've mainly been backing to get collector's editions I guess. For some of these games, those aren't even available retail. Got burned with Torment though, the retail collector's edition was far better than the backer's collector's edition, and cheaper too, which is ridiculous. (This particular issue was also covered in this interview, Brian admitted it, but blamed it on Techland)

I also back to support true indie developers who probably actually need the money. Copper Dreams is one example of that.

It's the other way around. Smaller, more "niche" titles are generally bought/reviewed by people who are genuinely looking forward to playing them.
They are not considered a "threat" by fans of other companies, considering there is little mass public interest for them ( unlike recent "epizode" with Zelda fans attacking Horizon on metacritic, while ranting about some form of delirious persecution by them).
Nor do they have massive marketing campaign behind them that end up building unrealistic expectations. ( there are few exceptions, like No Man's Sky, but those are extremely rare).

The other way around? So you think that negative reviews on Metacritic and Steam affect big budget titles more? I don't see how that is so. Big budget titles can counter negative reviews with sheer amounts of money spent in publicity and marketing. Little indies are dead in the water if their game is reviewed poorly as they don't have access to those resources.

I think there are cases of both happening, but even No Man's Sky that got bashed in reviews still sold a ton of copies. Naturally the games with higher recognition are not going to need reviews to sell. IMO, of course. Because they already have recognition and spotlight. One of the hardest things about indie dev is getting people to even talk about the game. That is never a problem for big budget games as they can pump tons into PR and marketing.