Microstutter
 

Hey y'all.

I'm experiencing a microstutter in the game. Hard to explain, but basically I get 60+ FPS most of the time, yet sometimes when I turn left or right, frames completely disappear and the screen "jumps". It's very disorienting, and happens a bit too much for my taste.

Any idea why that is? It's not really lag or what we call lag that is more common. It's like the frames just disappeared and the screen instantly jumped to the location you were looking, rather than a smooth transition.

Can it be fixed? Is it related to a setting like vertical sync or something in the Nvidia Control Panel?

First, Gothic 3 is still a pretty broken mess under the hood so poor performance is not unheard of. It still happens to this day in spite of all the community patches and even though we have much beefier hardware today than what was available in 2006.

Particularly noteworthy: As of patch 1.6, the game does no longer support any kind of multithreading (multiple CPU cores) so the best CPU for the game is simply the one with the highest clock speed. The number of cores is completely irrelevant.
What you need first and foremost is some nice and punchy GHz. MOAR = BETTAR ;) .

To this very day, the most frequent support requests at the WoG Gothic 3 technical help forums are performance related including people with high end rigs by today's standards.

As for your specific problem, did you end up using one of the extreme ge3.ini files that can be found at WoG and some other places?
If so, I would recommend to replace it back with a default ini file and approach it the other way around, i.e. do not go straight for ultimate settings but work your way up slowly and methodically from moderate settings to more extreme settings until the game starts acting up.
Some of the extreme INIs push the memory requirements too hard. Not good.

As far as hardware is concerned, you want to put the game on a SSD because the game engine is streaming content so it's beneficial to have the fastest possible I/O from disk to RAM.
CPU should be as fast as possible (see above). High GHz single thread performance is all that matters. Juice, juice and juice again.

Finally, make sure you installed everything in the correct order:

- Gothic 3 (start the game at least once to make sure all the config files are created etc.)
- CP 1.75.14
- CP Update Pack (optional fixes)
- Quest package 4.2+update (optional content)
- Content mod 3.1 (optional content)
- CleanUp Tool (optional fix for performance issues… you should still restart the game every 3 or 4 hours of play to clean the slate so to speak)

I would say make sure to start the game at least once after every single one of these steps to make sure everything is still working in between these installs.
It is always a bit annoying when trying to track a problem when you install tons of mods in one session and then don't know which straw it was that broke the camel's back.

Thanks. I think it's actually just how the game is and there isn't a fix. It's a weird issue, where the frames just disappear occasionally when turning left/right. It's not really an FPS hit, per say, but just a frames basically disappear and it appears the movement suddenly "jumps" instantly to the direction I pushed to look.

Still, it runs well enough to play and record my Let's Play. Thanks again.

For G3 stutter on multicore CPUs that didn't exist when the game was released a patch doesn't exist.
I don't remember now what I did back then when I had the issue, but IIRC disabling cores through msconfig fixed it for me (setting the number of cores to just 1 - note that you should enable them all back when you're not playing G3).
I might remember wrong though, maybe setting the process priority on high is enough (run the game, alt tab then set the high priority of g3 exe within task manager).

Forget what Moriendor says about clockspeed. The only game that needs you overclocking the damned CPU in order to avoid microstutters is rubbish AC4 code.

Actually overclocking essentially eliminated the problem on my system.

__

Seriously? What CPU could that be?
1.5 Ghz sempron or similar?

Man, Fluent bought some extraexpensive 4+ Ghz i7. Do you honestly believe he needs to up his game to 5 or more Ghz just to play a decade old game that wasn't stuttering on superold machines?
And no, G3 does not use Denuvo. :p

FX-8350. Eight cores. Overclocked to 4400.

__

G3 is a single core game. Multiple cores can't help in any case and aren't going to hurt in most cases.

Facts are facts Joxer. Overclocking can help a great deal with G3. Arguing won't change that.

__

LOL
Okay Fluent, don't bother with my suggestion.

Go buy some water cooler, grab a screwdriver and overclock the machine "skyhigh". Why use simple solutions when you can complicate it.
The extra benefit: you won't have stutter problems with AC4 garbage.

In the meantime, I found my ancient post:
https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/show…59&postcount=3

Overclocking is actually quite simple these days in many systems. Don't need a water cooler and definitely don't need a screwdriver (hint, overclocking uses system bios and keyboard input).

Still if anyone thinks that crippling their system by shutting off CPU cores as Joxer suggests will help, then have at it by all means.

__

Wait a minute. Is this issue actually fixable? Do you guys understand what the issue is I'm talking about?

Let me try and be clearer. It's not lag, or low framerate. The game runs at 60+ FPS pretty much always, except maybe during the opening orc battle, it was 45ish. But occasionally I'll swing the camera left to look over there, and instead of smoothly moving like any first-person camera would (playing in first-person, btw), it just may "instantly jump" to the area the camera *would have* moved with a smooth transition. I call it stuttering but it's more like jumping. As you can imagine it's disorienting at worst, annoying at best.

I guess I'll try disabling cores, setting to High priority and also disabling multithreading via Nvidia Control Panel.

Quick question. Is there a way to disable cores + run at high priority without having to set that in Task Manager every time you launch the game?

And joxer, my PC is not that great. i5 4690 cpu, gtx 970, 16 gb ram an ssd and some extra hard drives. :)

We both understand the issue. It's a known issue and subject of of many pages discussion in the "Gothic 3 Tweaks" sticky sub-section in the Gothic 3 section of the forums.

Moriendor did an incredibly good and thoughtful job of summing up the various approaches and what does and doesn't work. Increased CPU speed and hard drive speed (or SSD) are among the easiest and best solutions. Overclocking all but eliminated the problem for me.

__

I tried all of that, though. Was just making sure you all understood what I was trying to explain.

I guess I should overclock the i5 4690, then? It's already installed on a very fast SSD in a 6.0 Gbps slot.

Thanks for the help, btw.

Fluent I don't know anything about your CPU or the best approach to overclocking. In general though, CPU temperature does tend to increase and may need to be controlled. A Google search of recommendations for overclocking of your specific CPU (particularly in forums focusing on overclocking) is likely your best bet.

As to CPU temp, your motherboard manufacturer may provide a utility for monitoring CPU temp; otherwise there are various free CPU temp monitoring utilities such as "Hardware monitor" and "open hardware monitor" that are readily available.

If you run into temp issues, one easy solution is simply to remove a sidepanel on your computer case, and if necessary blow air onto the motherboard and CPU using a small floor fan -- since you aren't overclocking as a permanent system modification, but only for the G3 game.

__

I watercool and overclock the crap out of my system because it's a hobby of mine and I still had the stuttering. Last time I tried it was with 5930k@5GHz, 16 GB ram@3200 and overclocked titan x ( maxwell) with game and OS on SSD.

Still had the stuttering. So if overclocking helps, it didn't help me.

What you are seeing there is the game is dropping frames that can not be rendered fast enough. It's definitely the buggy engine. I have just reinstalled the game for fun since it is a small download, added the CP plus its update pack and, yes, it is stuttering occasionally on an i7-4790K (4.4GHz), 16GB RAM, GTX 1080, SSD.

I unlocked the framerate and I'm using FastSync (in-game vsync off). The end result (all maxed out settings) is up to 190fps between Ardea and Kap Dun, usually around 120fps and then sometimes it suddenly drops from 180fps to 110 - 120 or even down into the 80s and that's when you see the frame skipping/stuttering. It happens especially when approaching packs of monsters or NPCs or cities and probably when traversing the underlying loading cells of the world mesh, i.e. the streaming trigger points.

I would also conclude it is unfixable because of the broken engine and just something we have to live with. It's just like Ultima IX in that regard. That game also never really ran smooth, no matter what hardware you threw at it.

I was also kind of stunned how many bugs (or just "wonkiness") there are still. Last time I played the game was with the 1.70 community patch a few years back but in spite of even more fixes and update packs and all that stuff it is still quite rough around the edges.

Quite a shame that you can't just port it into the Risen 3 engine. I mean it's the same base engine so that would be really nice if you could just bring G3 up to R3 standards *sigh*.

P.S.: Oh, and alternative AI is a harsh mistress in the opening battle already since the orcs seem to find a very special interest in the player character. Several ones stopped fighting their previous opponent, ganged up on me, cornered me and I ended up in an endless loop of getting knocked out. I could not even pick my sword back up before they knocked me out again. It was hopeless.
In the original game this battle was a 2 minute affair but here it is more like 20 minutes since the best course of action with AAI as far as I can tell is to just watch the show, maybe snipe a little with the bow from the sidelines but otherwise just watch and wait until your allies kill the orcs.

I wonder if a FPS limiter would help. Limiting the FPS lower than the lowest FPS drop.

No idea, but just a thought.

I tried locking the fps at 60 and also enabled adaptive vsync. The result is that the frames do not drop from 180fps to 110fps but from 60fps to the 40s while producing the same stutters, of course :) .

It's hopeless… the engine is a piece of ****.

Damn. You guys are cool for responding to this. Ty again.

Saki, when are you going to build me a mammoth machine? I need to upgrade my PC soon so I can keep playing ancient RPGs in 4K with graphics mods! :D

@Moriendor, that orc battle was nuts! My winning tactic was run around, getting cheap shots in when I can and keep moving to not get cornered and hit! It worked alright. :D

By the way, loving the game so far. Steam Controller works great, game looks beautiful and it's chock full if RPG stuff. The combat is strangely satisfying, too.

IIRC, the stutters are the result of how they handle streaming - which would make sense given it happens when you turn. Games have a variety of ways to break up content in an effort to stream the relevant areas into memory from the storage device. If their engine wasn't prepared for the memory usage of their assets - then it would make sense that they couldn't seamlessly stream areas in 360 degrees around you - and areas to your sides might have to be loaded "on-the-fly" instead which could be the cause of stuttering.

In the old days, this was easy to detect - because you could actually hear your harddrive being under stress on such occasions ;)

These days, we all have SSDs (I take it) - so it's a little harder to detect when something is related to load delays.

That's just a theory, though - but streaming used to be a big technical challenge in the past - and only few developers could do it properly.

Ironically, PB games are among the best in terms of this technology - so I don't know what went wrong with G3.

Yeah, their Genome Engine is actually really impressive to me.

Hey, quick question. Content/Quest Mods. Should I add them? And can they be added a few hours into a playthrough without issue? I was curious because I wanted to know if the game remained tough and balanced on Hard/AAI/AB + quest packs. Seems the extra XP and gold could make things much easier?

Wait, you're playing insane difficulty but modding the game into more XP and more money?
That's a contradiction. Mod it into less XP and less $.

Huh?

I'm not modding anything now. Just playing vanilla with the community patch, a SweetFX profile and all graphical stuff turned on in Nvidia Control Panel. Unfortunately, while the Genome Engine is DOPE, it doesn't scale the text at higher res in this game. Wish I could fix that as 1080p even has small text, and 4K is unplayable. All good, though.

As for the Quest Pack, I did hear from someone on the Steam forums that the added content actually makes the game harder, due to things like higher reputation required for certain armors, etc.. I don't want to restart now as I'm several hours in, so I'll save that content for some future playthrough. It's my first ever playthrough, having fun. Good stuff. :)

So reading this made me decide to give it a go again. I have it at medium difficulty and alternative ai on and I couldn't kill the orcs in the first town. I think I need a combat refresher, every time an orc would go to hit me I would hit space bar to roll or dodge. Of course there isn't a roll or dodge and space sheathes your weapon. Needless to say that's bad.:lol: too much witcher and dark souls.

I have small stutters at what I assume are loading transitions but it's not nearly as bad as I remember. Overall good times.

The first orc battle is rough. Very rough. What I did was basically hit and run until they were all dead. Run around, find an opportunity to get some swings in against an orc that's fighting someone else, if any orcs go after you - run. Try and lose them a bit outside of the gate, run back in slicing and hitting anything you can get a few shots in on. After awhile we won.

Battle tips. RMB is block/parry, but on the settings I'm playing it works a bit differently, as in I *think* it only blocks for a second or two, even if you hold the button. So timing is key. It works very well with a staff weapon.

I'm also using a spear/halberd. Love the dang thing, because Range is a stat in the game, so you can time an enemy as they start to come in to attack with a RMB attack or two, back up a bit and keep them at a distance. You have to carefully watch enemies, even bloodflies, wolves, etc., for the perfect time to attack. I'm also playing in first-person mode, and still learning where the good opportunities are to strike.

Also, use a bow when you can, if not to just get a few shots in before the battle. Actually, shooting and moving backwards is almost *too* good of a strategy for early enemies. Although I still died about 95 times so far. :)

I used whatever scrolls I got when I got them. Fireball/Ice Lance is helpful. I have to check if there is a LMB hold "power attack" move. I really like the RMB "quick hit" type attack to fend off enemies with the spear. Also, there is a jedi-style technique when surrounded, and that is, if you attack while pressing the direction of the enemy, you will spin to attack them and so on. I say jedi-like because even though I suck at the combat so far, I had some downright amazing moments at times, spinning around like a jedi with the spear lightsaber thing against bandits. Was pretty neat. :D

And as always, gear is going to make a big difference. The smith at the first town when it repopulates will have a Spear you can buy that doesn't have any requirements to use. I also bought the armor + helmet from the first camp, which helps.

Hope that helps.

So, other than the occasional weird stuttering, the game runs pretty well overall. I can't complain much. Getting 45-ish FPS in a few towns, though. Might need to tweak a setting or two to get that to 60, as there is a bit more lag/noticeable choppiness in those spots.

That said, PB are geniuses. Their Genome Engine is very impressive to me. I can't believe simple things, like how much grass covers the ground at one time. 2006, Oblivion had grass that basically grew in front of your eyes, 20 feet around you as you walk. In Gothic III, you can look over a huge field and see it completely, I mean completely covered in grass, swaying in the breeze and even unique spots that look like wheat fields and so on. And STILL the FPS is close to 95-100! Crazy stuff.

I did edit some .ini settings to increase overall draw distance, but even enemies pop-in at ridiculously far distances. You can stand on a mountain cliff, look over a valley and see tiny little ant-sized enemies moving way in the distance. I couldn't believe how far the view distance was for that as well. And the settlements, which I've found 2 of so far, feel huge and large-scale. Much larger than most other games this size. And these 2 settlements are so close together on this GIANT map, wow. The game/engine somehow pulls this all off and stays fairly stable other than the weird stutter issue.

And to top it off, every game they've made has been in this same engine?! Wow. ELEX included in that. I don't know how they managed to do all of this but whatever it is, it's impressive. I always liked their stuff but never realized just how talented the folks there really are/were.

As for the game, enjoying it a lot after 10 hours or so, which is finally when I started to learn combat. :D Melee is very rewarding as you have to time attacks and react properly. The backing up while shooting arrows is a bit weird, though. I take it that early/low level enemies can be handled that way, but tougher enemies will catch you and you can't outrun them. I end up fighting like Legolas or something, run away, jump on a rock and shoot an orc between the eyes. Rinse and repeat. :D

I do wish they'd patch the engine or something to scale text at high resolution. That and the occasional stutter are the two main issues, but the game is still very playable.

Good stuff. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the engine and a bit more of the game. It's cool so far.

Glad to see you have gotten around to playing this fluent. I have said it many times but I have an irrational love for this game that completely ignores it's flaws. I really enjoy the combat. When fighting humanoids the stab is your friend. It staggers them so you can easily follow up with a heavy blow afterwards and this is helpful in the opening battle too. With most animals its all about getting into a rhythm of continually hitting and stepping back. Minecrawlers, as a specific example, are borked and can be beaten at almost any level by using the quick slashing move (RMB), stopping when they block and continuing when they drop their guard again. I'm in the middle of my annual G1-G3 play through (just at chapter 4 of G2) and will be jumping back into Myrtana again soon. Can't wait. Don't forget to turn up one of the best soundtracks ever written.

Still though controller and first person. Just no :)

Hey Brian. Thanks for the comment! I'm greatly enjoying it as well. I like the combat, too, especially melee as you have to time it perfectly and pay attention to what the enemy is doing.

I just finished G2 a couple weeks back or so. Loved it. I'd like to head to Risen after G3 and then back to G1. I'd like to finish the journey with that G2 mod expansion thing, Tale of a Warrior.

The first-person view is great so far. I just wish there was more of a graphical indication as to whether your weapon is drawn or not. Sometimes I end up thinking it is drawn only to swing and nothing happens. :)

So, it seems there may be a fix to the stutter after all. This brilliant guy in my YouTube comments offered some suggestions that I tried. Amazingly, the microstutter is gone! However, my FPS has dipped slightly, so I'm hoping to figure out how to fix that while keeping the stutter gone.

Walking through Ardea/Cape Dun and there wasn't even a hint of a stutter. That's remarkable considering those areas were a bit choppy especially.

I'll be using that info. fluent thanks but that Entity.ROI seems wrong. It defaults to 4 in the ini file from what I remember. I had it set to 8 the last few times I played. Maybe the 12500 is the scale used in the tool. There can be audio issues when the Entity.ROI is very high, mainly near the sea where the sound of the waves cut in and out but its probably worth it.

Yep, I noticed the audio issues. I'm playing around with settings right now. The G3SI tool is a godsend, and already greatly increased the look of the game and performance to boot.

I'll update with a video soon on the new settings I settle on.

Hey Brian, or anyone else for that matter. Ever hear of an issue where you load a saved game and all the terrain has disappeared? I'm standing in a white limbo with NPCs + items in the world, but no walls or ground. Seems an issue around Montera, because previous saves are fine, but if I teleport to Montera I get a crash, some debug/fatal error. If I load in Montera, the white limbo.

Any ideas?

Never had that before. My guess would be something to do with the prefetch settings you changed. Maybe settle on something lower than your youtube commenter recommended.

I think the prefetch settings he suggested there are more for performance, though. Those high settings reduced stuttering a lot for me.

It is cool seeing long distances, too. :P But I'll play with those and see if it helps it.

I'm assuming the pre-fetch is about pre-loading assets to reduce the amount that needs to be streamed (as it seems the streaming tech. is what causes the stuttering) and if its very high I imagine the engine, being as dodgy as it is, might choke and you end up with whatever weird effect you are getting. I'm certainly keen to try upping my settings for pre-fetch as I also had the stuttering issue but maybe not as high as suggested. I would also be guessing that the farclippingplane stuff is more about the view distance than the pre-fetch but I'm no expert by any means.

I think you're right.

Setting it back to lower numbers did the trick. I want to experiment with the prefetch and raise it a little bit more. In areas like Ardea/Cape Dun, there was no stutter with the high prefetch setting, but if you travel to Montera the game just crashes.

Prefetch cell size = 30000
low poly = 40000

Seems to work so far. No weird limbo issue and a quick sprint through Montera didn't have any stuttering. Needs more tests but I think I'm going to resume my playthrough with these settings and see how it goes.

Biggest FPS impact is Radius of Influence, aka ROI. I set it to 4000 (default) and the game runs smooth enough with all the other settings maxed, and

Render.PrefetchGridCellSize=24500
Render.PrefetchGridCellSizeLowPoly=53000

Mostly 60 FPS, less in towns (30 absolute lowest, usually 35-45). Runs nice enough.