Yeah, C&C is about making your decisions matter, and it CAN be pretty obvious if it's only an illusion (try playing an evil guy in NWN2 for example). While in games like WL2, PoE, FO:NV and obviously TW2&3 (haven't played them so I'll take your word for it) you will get a sense of "this happened because I did that". You don't have to play through a game several times to experience that.

Now, of we're talking more random things like killing someone who could've shown up later in the game otherwise, that's a different matter. And those things can be fun too, but it's not what I would call well implemented C&C.

I am a bit confused in what you are saying.

If you are playing a game that you know your choices will change the out come in the game it matters all the way though it or it should.

Example in the second dragon age, one of the quest was to save his mother. I had saved it at the beginning and replayed it 3 different ways and all three had the same out come she died.

Now in the last two Witcher games and have played TW2 three times and TW3 twice all with different out comes and in the case of TW3 completely different game.

I understand what Sakichop is saying, in theory. If you go into a game without any foreknowledge, and only play it once, you have no way of knowing whether the events that occur are the result of your actions or not.

In practice, though, I usually find out something about the game before I buy it, and once I know that choice and consequence are significant, that knowledge about my agency affects my experience of the game.

And foreknowledge about TW3 wasn't even necessary because, after TW1, it was a common knowledge that significant C&Cs were part of CDPR's repertoire. So claiming innocence sounds contrived to me.

I have the exact same thing as sakichop. If you only play the game once (and I do, except for tw2) you never know whether a particular action has a significant impact.

For all I know killing a character only changes one dialogue line further in the game. The knowledge that there could be serious consequences does nothing to me if I don't experience them myself in a second playthrough.

I guess when we are talking about CDRED games which Cyberpunk is and they say there is C&C in the game we know there is.

As for any other companies I don't believe half of what they say is in the game.

No, It's more like the sky is still blue but does it matter to me if I'm blind? If I never see the sky does it matter what color it is?

Yes, but they are hardly concise or all inclusive of every choice. I thought the witcher 1 did a much better job of that.


This is exactly my point, you had to replay these parts to see the different outcomes or not. If you hadn't replayed them you'd have no idea of the consequences.

I didn't like the witcher 2 or 3 enough to replay them so the C&C is lost on me.

I think some of you think I'm saying the witcher doesn't have C&C or I didn't know it had it. Of course it does and of course I know.

My comment isn't even really witcher specific. All I'm saying is C&C isn't really that important if I only play the game once. Unless I play through the game multiple times or look up every choice online then I have no idea what the other possibilities are and therefore they are irrelevant to me.

Therefore, for me a game can't make it on C&C alone. the sum of the rest of the game needs to hold my attention long enough to afford me multiple play throughs. Of course this is my opinion and others mileage may vary.

There isn't any games I know of besides the Witch games where C&C actually matters.
So knowing that when playing them, making choices in the game for me makes it feel hard choices actually matter.

It doesn't come down to if that game will be replayable or not, though that is a bonus.

Long and short I wish more games did it..

Except that I could give you plenty of examples where you would be able to realize C&C during a playthrough of a game.

If you don't like C&C though, that's fine. To me, that's like someone saying they'd be fine with a D&D game that only offered 1 class, but then I guess they'd use the same argument.

No, I love C&C that I experience. DAO has some good C&C, I know because I played it 3 times and experienced it.

I just don’t care about content I’ll never experience, if you do then great, if content you’ll never play is important to you then cool, but I would think you’d be able to understand me not caring about content I’ll never play.

I’m starting to think people are just upset that I don’t like the Witcher 3 enough to replay it and are just messing with me. My point just can’t be that hard to understand.

Yeah, that must be it. :rolleyes:

I can't tell if you're just kidding or being intentionally obtuse at this point, but I'd say this discussion has run its course.

I will never play mage class, so all games should remove it. Why are there boats in Civ? I never use boats because I set world generation to low sea level. Was the double shotgun really necessary in Doom? Single barrel is enough, you just need to shoot it more often. Why are there two Jedi in TLJ? One is enough.

This just reinforces that some people either don’t read or just don’t understand what I’m saying.

Not once did I say to remove C&C, I even said I like it. I’ve just said the C&C I don’t experience doesn’t matter to me.

I guess you’re really interested in movies you’ll never watch, music you’ll never hear, books you’ll never read and games you’ll never play. I’m sure you have a high investment in that stuff and think about it a lot.

Of course you don’t. So I’m not sure why some are confused that I don’t care about that stuff either.

I know it’s my fault for engaging back in this thread but I’m just baffled that people can’t understand my point. I don’t care if people disagree, I expected that givin the history of post on the Witcher 3 but I never fathomed people wouldn’t understand my point.

I’ve not once said that I dislike C&C or it shouldn’t exist yet somehow people are getting that from my posts.

You know it's a terrible sin not to love everything about Witcher 3, Saki. You're a pretty bad human being for thinking it's not perfect - and there's no way you can just have different preferences.

No, something MUST be wrong with you and I think it's absolutely necessary to belittle you or create endless strawmen to destroy your cowardly attempt to like what you like - instead of what everyone else likes!

Dart?

Not anyone is saying you have to love or even like TW3, I believe it is being used to as it is one of few games that has real C&C.

But if you are just trying to stir things up …. carry on.

This is like trying to explain to someone why the square peg doesn't fit in the round hole. It has nothing to do with whether you like TW or not.

You can't even make up your mind.

There are probably dialogue paths and choices I am not interested in following either. But removing them also removes the impact and meaningfulness of those choices. Which is something I definitely don't like!

I'm talking about the motivation of reactions here.

People are struggling to accept someone has different preferences, and they're trying to make it irrational or wrong - somehow.

It's very, very common for people to construct that kind of theory - rather than take the obvious route of simply accepting that we all like different things for different reasons.

It's really amazing to me that people MUST construct this narrative where people are wrong or "illogical" because they dislike something or don't appreciate it.

I mean, we see it every single day. Every single day - and yet we should all have countless - and I do mean countless - examples of things we don't personally like but that others enjoy.

I have absolutely no problem exchanging about such things and you all know I'm more than happy to shit all over games I don't enjoy - but why the need to "correct" people, belittle them or create strawmen? I simply don't get it.

Well, ok maybe I do get it - I just think it's counter productive - that's all.

Why does he pretend to like C&C when he doesn't like C&C?

Again I never said to remove them.

You purposely left out a whole paragraph between those 2 sentences. They aren’t related to each other. You’re either just trying to troll me or have terrible comprehension skills.

Really picking out sentences in someone post and putting them together to say something different is pretty low. You’ll be the only person on my ignore list. I don’t mind disagreeing but obvious poor character is something I’d rather avoid.

You know it's a terrible sin to like Witcher 3, Celtic. You're a pretty bad human being for thinking it's a good game - and there's no way you can just have different preferences.

No, something MUST be wrong with you and I think it's absolutely necessary to belittle you or create endless strawmen to destroy your cowardly attempt to like what you like - instead of what everyone else likes!


Seriously though.. the funny thing is that we weren't even talking about TW3. The topic had shifted to C&C in general, or at least that's how it seemed to me.