Kingmaker - Preview @Keen Gamer
 

Keen Gamer previewed Pathfinder: Kingmaker and found themselves absorbed.

Thanks Farflame!

More information.

I think the article is rather misleading.

I don't think you can get "landlocked" when your inventory is clear - that sounds more like a bug.

I agree the encumberance can get quite frustrating though - not because its unmanageable but it puts restriction on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution.

With cooking, I noticed my main character often spoils the food when she is fatigued - this perfectly makes sense to me. You still end up eating and resting fully when you spoil the food - the only thing you miss out on is extra buff from eating excellent meal.

There is definitely room for improvement but not in an extent the author describes - for one, I don't think the author has put in enough hours to really explore and understad how the game works. I spent 20hours+ in beta 1, which is just chapter 1.

That sounds like a Pro to me. If you want to carry around lots of heavy stuff you better bring some Brutes as pack mules.

Well, or an actual pack mule.
Is that possible in the game?

Well, yes, or that.

The weight is a pro for me as well. There should be a price for things. If you want to be a hoarder and loot everything than you will need to consider that. I am a minimalist so less of a problem for me as I dislike clutter even in games.

For me whether I liked or disliked the weight would depend on whether it encouraged more strategic decision making, or if it just encouraged more tedious trips back to town to sell your loot.

Not at this point, but beta testers really want this to be implemented, myself included. It provides players another option - right now, I'm a little sad I can't have both Linzi and Octavia in my party at the same time cause they both have low strength and constitution :'(

Perhaps the stragey is deciding which is more important - lots of loot and fast gold versus having more diversity in characters.

For me I would never pick carrying more loot over having characters I want in the party. That is a choice I can make though. It means I have to be more careful on what I loot - focusing on more valuable items (weight to worth ratio) and leaving more behind.

So the game doesn't force you to limit to just characters that are strong - that is entirely a player choice for wanting to hoard loot.

I have always liked that myself - and one reason I enjoy games that do limit weight. These games are quite playable without having to loot everything - it just means you won't make as much gold. Unless you want to make a lot of selling trips - which is the players decision if they want money that bad.

For me one thing I dislike is the trend to make every game remove all obstacles just to appease everyone - creating very bland games. Options are good. Like I saw in POE that you have the option to limit access to stash. So those who want to hoard every item in that game can … or those who want some enforced limits can restrict access to the communal stash.

I also saw in the Beta 2 for Kingmaker an option to ignore inventory fatigue in the options. Not sure if that is a permanent feature but you can select that and not worry about it as much if it bothers you.

Pack mules are nice but only if there is a steep price for them - otherwise why bother with limiting inventory if you can just grab a pack mule?

Welcome to the dichotomy that is reviewers today.

They all want all the things and all the features. If its missing something they complain loudly that its missing.

If a game has all the things, they complain its the same as other games that have the things, and its bland and boring etc. :)

Spot on!
:thumbsup:

Damn, not a fan of weight limits at all. I usually will get a mod that removes weight limits, especially in first person games like Fallout 3, but also in rpgs.

Hopefully they will put in pack mules or something for those of us who don't find weight limits fun or strategic. Not sure if this game will even be modded either, unless they have already said so. But a niche game like this by a small developer, I'm thinking that is rather unlikely.

Updated: So I have now read the article. yea, not a fan of "punishing the player" as a game design philosophy. That is a very flawed approach, in my humble opinion. I know there are rpg codex players who love it, but I don't think there are many players who do, on average.

So when reading about how the game has "fatigue" and how the encumbrance system works, ugh. I would find that supremely annoying. Hell, it would probably make me stop playing the game.

If these "survival mechanics" can be tweaked and gotten rid of entirely in an options screen, then fine. But leave it up to the players.

I want to distinguish between general game difficulty and these kinds of mechanics. I think there is nothing wrong with difficult games, of course, such as difficult combat encounters, and a game that really makes you concentrate and spend a bit of effort to succeed. That is all well and good. And old school. I'm talking about certain mechanics, like weight limits and other things, many of which could be put under "survival mechanics", that in my opinion aren't enjoyable, aren't fun, and the difficulty they add is just tediousness, frustration, and boredom.

Anyway, not trying to be a Debbie Downer. On the bright side, I thought what the article had to say about the combat was really good and promising sounding. Also the basic attributes, interface, graphics, and character build system looks very good.

I see both pros and cons with encumberance/fatigue system. I was going to write my impression on it but I think I will wait till the full release as a lot might change by then. All I'm going to say is, I'm loving the game despite some of the flaws in its current state.

Usual limit of pack mules is that they will not follow you into dangerous areas, and you need to feed them and keep them healthy (that includes that they can die if you bring them close to enemies). Also if you leave them alone for too long something might scare them off or eat them.
If game is just going to add pack mules with 0 downside then inventory limits are pointless.

IF weight limit brings something meaningful to the gameplay - I have no problem with it. Particularly if it eliminates the usual boatloads of crap loot thrown at you in favour of less, but more meaningful crap thrown at you

If it's just an annoying mechanic for the sake being there, particularly in addition of inventory limits - just kill it fire while there is still time.

Ok, so I guess I will share my thoughts on encumbrance/fatigue system now.

The whole encumbrance system is tied to many other aspects of the game.

Each person has individual weight allowance/tolerance determined by their strength. Once you exceed this, your movement speed reduces (in the local map) and if you are heavily encumbered, you won't be able to move. There are other negative impacts like reduced AC.

As you get fatigued/exhausted, your strength and dexterity is reduced, which will affect your weight allowance.

There is also party weight allowance. Once you exceed this limit, your movement speed in the world map is reduced, which means your travel time extends, and if your party is heavily encumbered, you won't be able to travel from one location to another.

Basically you don't want to be encumbered if possible.

The thing is, the travel from one place to another may require several hours - this means, anyone with low strength/constitution will suffer from encumbrance by the time you reach the destination.

What do you then do? Well, you need to rest. Do you have food? Then it's all good, but if you don't (rations aren't readily available and it's not cheap either), then you need to go for a hunting first. Then cook the meal, of course. But when you are exhausted, you aren't very focused on your given tasks, which increases the chance of getting attacked at the camp (before or during the rest) and you won't be able to fully recover. Then you have to go through the same process again (hunt -> camouflage the camp -> cook/eat -> sleep without getting interrupted) until you are successfully rested.

I don't find this a bad thing since it adds immersion and additional layer of complexity to come up with suitable strategy/plan for me, but I can see why some people will find it frustrating.

What I find annoying is though, the restriction the encumbrance/fatigue system places on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution. About third of the companions available in Kingmaker has strength of 10 or less. They can barely equip themselves suitably - an amour and 1 set of weapon (2 set if lucky) is all they can carry, otherwise, they will be encumbered and suffer a penalty in combat. Some companions will join the party encumbered with their starting equipment, which was eye roll worthy. Owlcat readjusted all item weight going into beta 2 - I really wish they didn't.

So, as I said, it has pros and cons - some might find it interesting, some might find it annoying.

That is horrible unless there is a story reason where a companion due to some masochistic needs or lifethreatening poison just needs to be overcumbered all the time. But that should be just one such companion. Not more.

Two bad things here:
1. Fatigue reducing strength should affect skill checks and combat rolls but not change max encumbrance limit. I really hated this in BG games as well. And BG were very generous with max encumbrance values
2. Encumbered characters should not have their move speed lowered outside of fights while traveling inside a area game loads into. In PnP (where this rule comes from) times passes in seconds, you don't have a DM show you every step you take over a field/forest/whatever. If being slowed comes into effect it is because of tense or dangerous situation, not because of random crossing of a field.
They should always take longer to travel on overland map.

You should post this to where some of the devs are actually reading. :)

There is an option to turn off the reduced movement speed due to encumbrance in the local map - very handy - but you still get immobile if you are heavily encumbered.

I do have to agree with Purpleblob that the harshness seems a bit too high. It should have some impact but not be a viscous circle that just becomes frustrating.

Well hopefully they will balance it to be important but fun and have options to disable it for those who don't care for weight or inventory management.

Yea but does it also remove reduced movement during combat? If it has no penalty during combat I would probably not use that option.

Becoming immobile because of reaching max carry limit is OK, game should have that.

Well, if they have Bags of Holding - problem solved! (eventually) That's what we used in IE games and NWN etc…I have no issue with carry limits and fatigue etc (those are part of D&D & PF mechanics, and stop ludicrous hoarding), but there need to be reasonable ways of mitigating them. I accept that I can't carry ever shiny piece of loot, much as I hate leaving even a copper behind…

Have beta players given feedback on this?

Bah I'll just use my custom game trainer to remove encumbrance. :cool:

Anyway I hope this game sells better then PoE 2.

Well, no, they're not pointless. This gives the player choice. I'm not fond of inventory limits. I find them often annoying. So I can grab a pack mule and avoid some of that pain. If you like inventory limits, or want to make the game harder in that respect, then don't use a pack mule in the game. Now the game can cater to both our preferences.

What bugs me often in discussing game design, is you get players who like a game to implement (or not implement) a certain feature and don't want the option of choosing to enable or disable that particular feature in the game. This often seems to be players who want something a bit more "hardcore" in their game… no multiple saves, no pause to issue commands, no pack mules. =)

I say add those things in and players can choose how they prefer to play the game… don't use multiple saves, don't pause your game, etc. But then those same players complain and scream "no"… if you put those features in the game I'll use 'em (even though I say I don't want to). And I say, don't make me pay for your weak will… if those features are there and you can't resist using them, then maybe you need to take a closer look at what you really like in playing games.

If my understanding is correct, the penalty during combat only applies if individual is encumbered. The option to turn off movement speed in the local map is more of a group encumbrance thing. So as long as each party member isn't encumbered it's all good during combat even if you are encumbered as a party.

So many beta players want the pack mule or bag of holding. I reckon more than half of feedback in beta forums is regarding encumbrance/fatigue issue.

As Wolf said, I don't want the system gone, but modified to become more manageable.

I think Purpleblob's post sounded like a very good analysis of that system, and the devs should pay attention and take it as good feedback for the beta.

The encumbrance system does sound very heavy handed, to me. Not sure what they are thinking, but hopefully they will take constructive criticisms like Purpleblob's (and others in this thread made good comments as well) on board.

Yeah, I guess I will post my feedback on beta forums. All in all, I'm finding Kingmaker enjoyable despite the encumbrance issue. Sunk in 40+ hours now. Still in Chap 2 lol.

I'm curious what sort of companions are being created here and what things weigh. I've played a *lot* of Pathfinder. A Strength of 10 is more than enough to wear light armor, carry a couple of weapons, and still be able to have a few potions or alchemical items in reserve. Are they creating Strength 10 warriors that want to wear heavy armor and carry two handed weapons? Also, in Pathfinder, your combat speed is reduced by medium and heavy armor even if you aren't encumbered… well, unless you're a Dwarf… so why is that a surprise? Or is it just a surprise to non-Pathfinder folks?

I know they aren't porting the TT rules 100%, but creating companions that are encumbered by their starting equipment seems really wrong. As someone else asked, will there be bags of holding or handy haversacks? Better yet, what about armors made from lighter materials? Celestial chain shirts and breastplates? Spells like ant haul, bull's strength, bear's endurance? If they're just saddling players with a punitive system to prevent them from money-ing the system, then remove the excessive loot and save us all the pain. Otherwise, yeah, everyone is going to favor physical characters and a third of your NPC roster will go unused by the majority of the player base.

@Darkbridger

I'm hoping Owlcats will re-adjust the weight of all items because it was much better in beta 1. In saying that, things get better as you level up + gold to buy items which gives boost to your attributes.

Selling the common loots isn't the best way to make money in Kingmaker (items don't worth much + heavy), therefore, being a pack rat doesn't really make sense :P Selling interesting artifacts to an appropriate person yields a solid profit + interesting story/lore.

Yes, buffs help too but only in the local maps only as the buff wear off quickly as you travel in the world map.

Would love to write a preview but a few things are preventing me:
1. I don't use FRAP or any other tools to take screenshots - currently, screenshot function don't work with beta.
2. Either things will change before the release (thus making my preview moot) or I will end up repeating same points in my review after the release.
3. Feeling rather lazy :P It's a huge game, I played 50+ hours and still feel like I barely scratched the surface…

Is there some kind of permanent home stash where you can store stuff that doesn't count towards your characters'/party's weight limit?

I saw a stash at my barony main hall but for some reason I can't interact with it - which I assume is a bug…

After sinking in 68 hours into beta 2, my Kingmaker journey has come to an end due to a game breaking bug. I'm really sad, I was having so much fun :( Still haven't even finished the Chapter 2, so you can guess just how massive this game is!

All in all, I'm in love with this game even with encumbrance/fatigue issues + bugs.

I found the story quite engaging. The first chapter involves claiming your own barony, while the second chapter lets you concentrate on strengthening the barony, which leads you to make the land safe, building up the relationships with other lords in neighboring regions, finding out the source of curse etc.. lots of diverse and interesting quests!!!

Stolen Lands is a harsh place - once you step out into the wilderness, there are so many monsters waiting to… send you to a better place :P I've been zapped, poisoned, mauled, crisped to death by so many different creatures like Will-o'-Wisp, giant centipede, owlbear, Linnorm…. good fun!

The combat requires a bit of micromanagement since it is fast paced and one wrong move can be the end of you… This game definitely has a steep learning curve, especially for people who haven't played other D&D or Pathfinder games imo. A lot of time, you will have to get correct spells and/or potions ready to win the battle, which mean you will also have to rest quite frequently.

As I said before, I love the camping system. This is where you refresh your health and spells, buff your party by cooking an excellent meal for the next day while you bond with the companions.

One thing I find a bit underwhelming is party banter… I didn't find it all that engaging… or maybe the Rusky humour isn't getting through to me :P So far I found Linzi, Harrim and Jubilost most fun to have around. Unfortunately, they aren't in my party often due to low strength/constitution :( I should add though, encumbrance/fatigue system becomes more manageable as you progress the game as you gain more stats via level up + magical items. Still haven't found Nok-Nok, I think he's the only one I haven't met yet. There are 11 companions in total - Linzi, Jaethal, Harrim, Valerie, Amiri, Tristian, Octavia, Regongar, Jubilost, Ekundayo and Nok-Nok.

Obtaining companion is important for your Kingdom building too as they act as your advisors and without them, kingdom events and project cannot be done. I also enjoyed the kingdom building aspect a lot. A successful completion of event and project will boost your kingdom stats, provide additional building points, and may also lead to adventure quest to progress the main story. If you fail or neglect certain events, it will result in reduction in your kingdom stats and eventually will end in game over (or so I heard).

I didn't find it too difficult to juggle the kingdom building and adventuring - the new kingdom events/projects pops up at the beginning of the month, so make sure you are back at your barony to pick the advisors, start the event and off to adventure! As long as you visit your barony hall every once/twice a month, it should be fine.

Well, that was a lot longer than I intended :D I'm so eager to experience the whole game, will definitely write a review on this game once I'm done playing it through fully.

Sounds awesome. I expect a lot of fun from this game once it releases.

Nice write-up, thank you Purpleblob!

Is loot - specifically weapons and gear - unique and placed by the game designers, or is it randomly generated like DoS2?

It sounds like Pathfinder: Kingmaker is the real most valuable player. Can't wait to get my hands on it and playthrough. Now I want a physical copy of it with map and manual.

I'm getting excited from what purpleblob wrote.
It seems the game includes everything i want from a video game rpg. And since i dropped POE 2, tired from the combat, i'm expecting Kingmaker.

From what I can tell, it's hand placed but I haven't seen many "special/named" items at this stage.

One thing I'm concerned is the amount of bugs I encountered - I really hope they will delay the release if necessary and iron out most of bugs.

I said it since even before the KS started: Russian developers = mega buggy game.