Kingmaker - Preview @PC Gamer
 

PC Gamer checked out Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

Thanks Couchpotato!

More information.

I don't understand this. Why not just have all the dialog options available?

That is way too long. Must be a lot of filler.

Now this sounds cool, but hopefully it wont just be a side gimmick.

Because players would just choose everytime the option corresponding to their alignement without thinking about it (the Mass Effect syndrome).

In this game, alignements can change during the course of the campaign, and players have to be carefull in their responses if they want their character to keep their initial disposition.
Palladin can't choose too many evil or neutral options without losing their good divine power, but sometimes they don't have a choice, etc…

That's actually kind of cool, for a D&D game. Usually it's a choice between a nice person, mercenary, or jerk. Implementing more (hidden) options will be a lot more work for the writers, but, hopefully, it will give the game a better role playing feel.

I agree with the alignement affecting the dialogue options. Sometimes less is more, and being a different person morally and ethically should warrant different thinking. As Winterfart points out, many people don't think much about the consistency aspect, meaning that in practise their characters come off as schizophrenics roleplaying-wise.
Now, obviously, this would require a good execution to work.

I am really looking forward to this game…being more similar to something like Baldur's gate rather than D:OS is a plus for me. I loved D:OS, but that satisfied a different itch…

Same here! Can't wait! I have a lot of work-related stuff going on in September, but come October I will have 2-3 weeks off. And then it's Kingmaker time (for a long time)!
I'm already giddy thinking about char creation!

It should be up to the player to decide for themselves how they want to roleplay when it comes to moral dialog options. This system feels too limiting, considering how rigid alignment is in Pathfinder.

I think this sounds great actually, I like that my alignment limits my possible responses, as long as it doesn't go to far. I have a much harder time liking the approach where your character can be and do everything (TES).

Perhaps my biggest problem is that I find the alignment system of D&D and Pathfinder highly flawed. It's harder to ignore when it affects which dialog options I can pick.

I disagree, just look at how it works in PoE, you have loads of dialogue options you can't use because you lack the attributes, the skill, the class or the ability. And the game is better for it. I see no reason why alignment can't work the same way.

Fair enough. I like the alignment system. What I don't like though is when good and evil are either the holy do-gooder paladin or the crazy maniac. As Evil, I should be able to say some nice things if it will get me what I want. As good, I should be able to pretend to be evil to help someone. Etc. (I love it when a game gives dialogue options as both "truth" and "lie")

This is concerning to me. I admit I'm not a big fan of RTwP and would rather see a true turn-based system. I find RTwP systems often result in combat that feels too chaotic with too little agency… and then pausing to keep track of things starts to feel more like a chore than a game. Those comments don't alleviate my (albeit biased) concerns.

The alignement system is fine.
I felt like you for a long time, then I realised that most CRPG just use a simplified version of it for their dialog trees anyway (good, neutral, evil, roguish…). It's fine.

I like Obsidian approach to dialogs. FalloutNV, KOTORII or PoE are flawed games but they're among my favorite solely because dialog choices are always satisfaying.

No system in a game tends to be perfect, and I'm pretty certain I can work with this one just fine.

PoE2 skill checks are about whether you know something or can convince somebody. When it comes to moral responses, you're hardly ever limited by disposition.

Instead PoE2 handles disposition by changing the responses of the NPC. For example, Asturas will try to manipulate you by appealing to your highest disposition. If you're benevolent, he will appeal to your sense of compassion. If you're honest, he will appeal to your sense of justice. If you're rational, he will appeal to your sense of reason.

In my opinion, changing NPC responses based on alignment is a much better system than limiting player responses based on allignment. PoE2 handles it perfectly.

The reason I dislike the D&D alignment system is because it treats good and evil like black and white concepts, and I find the lawful vs chaotic spectrum just as rigid. The best alignment systems deal with specific virtues rather than broad generalizations.

I can agree with this to some degree, but on the other hand I find that Good and Evil should be black and white. The problem is when I can't pick a "good" response for evil reasons, or the other way around. Especially playing an evil character that isn't a complete idiot is hard when the system gives too few options. It needs to be more nuanced, but that's not a problem with the alignment system but with the dialogues.

In P'n'P, it's much easier to follow your alignment while still not being a moron…

What I enjoyed the most in Kingmaker are:

1. Combat - the game really make you to explore and experiment with abilities/potions/scrolls/spells/items available to you to get through some tough battles. I never thought torch can be the most effectice weapon I have in possession against certain enemy I faced early on in the game :)
2. Character building - not just for the combat but to survive in the wild, track the enemies effectively, to unlock the extra dialogues and secrets… etc etc
3. Story telling - this really surprised me, maybe because I didn't exactly have high expectation, but the main quest really got me hooked up.

On the other hand, things I didn't enjoy are:
1. Companion interactions - this really fell short in my opinion. Funny enough, I found NPCs that doesn't join your party more interesting.
2. Encumbrance - now the added weather affect also slows down the party movement. Sigh.

All in all, I'm really looking forward to the full release!!! :)

Even tho I like playing my games on the hardest difficulty permadeath whatever mode… I hate encumbrance.. With a passion! Its one of the things I mod out first chance I get.

My impressions as someone that has only seen previews

Combat - I wont like it because it's Pathfinder and RTwP
Story - I already know the story and it's not good
World - Golarion is a bland knockoff of the Forgotten Realms
Dialog - Not very good. Too many wall of text responses
Companions - Not that important to me, but some look interesting
Difficulty - I've heard that it's challenging, which is good
Kingdom management - Haven't heard much about it, but this interests me the most
Content - 120 hours is too much. I heard beta users say it gets repetitive eventually

I like it if the game is focused on realism, which this isn't.

One of the great things about PoE2 is the stash mechanic. Unlimited inventory space and carry weight. They even added a search bar in a patch so you can easily navigate it.

I'm a beta user, I've played it over 70 hours and I want more. And I haven't even experienced much of Kingdom system yet. I'm so eager to see how my Kingdom will evolve over time!!! :)

Fair enough, but I find most games that long depend on filler content. 120 hours sounds like a filler nightmare, and there are other games I want to play as well.

Yeah… we know. :)

It does sound quite long but for me the 70 hours went by so quick, planning my charcter build, attemping different strategies for each combat, making decisions on how to resolve each quest, learning/reading up on lores…. these all add up!! :)

Many RPGs allow you to do all that. My backlog isn't growing any shorter.

I will probably enjoy the game, but I don't know if I will like it enough to invest 120 hours. Not even my favorite games can hold my attention that long in one playthrough.

Its not the same. In case of PoE you talk about skills or special experience of your character while in Kingmaker's case its about your morality. Morality is complex thing based on actual context - not some general black/white compass - and the player is the one who needs to value actions. Some limitation is ok (you shouldnt do something that is completely strange to your alignment), but devs should be careful because they could gate your (dialog) options too much. So instead of playing your own hero you would feel like you have to play some kind of rigid archetype set for your alignment by devs.


Does it mean that every game has bad combat except PoE2? :)

And when you talk about PoE2 does it mean you talk about your impressions too? :)

I don't hide the fact that I love PoE2, but I'm not oblivious to its flaws either.

Did I say other RPGs don't let you do that? :) All those aspects are exceptionally enjoyable in Kingmaker.

Didn't realise you have backlog, unless it consists of PoE2 only ;)

I'm not sure about this game. I'm waiting to see how mod friendly it will be.

I'm currently playing a heavily modded version of PoE2 and I'm really enjoying it (now that I've been able to mod it to suit my playstyle).

Some things that worry me about Kingmaker:

1. Encumbrance (it's the first thing I'd remove with a mod)
2. Party members (I prefer to play solo as a stealthy rogue type character. PoE2 lets me do this. I'm not sure if Kingmaker has this option).
3. Challenging difficulty (I don't like hard, challenging games. I prefer to just explore and experience the story without getting frustrated. So this is the 2nd thing I'd mod, to make it as easy as possible).
4. Tabletop rules. This is not a tabletop game! If they add things like having to rest after every encounter to recharge spells then I'm out! Resting in the Baldur's Gate games was one of the most hateful game mechanics I've ever encounted.
5. The whole Kingdom building stuff. Does not sound appealing. If I want a RTS I'll play a RTS. I hope this part of the game can be ignored.

Those are my chief concerns at the moment. But if the game can be modded, then most of these things can be fixed to suit my own personal preferences.

So I'll sit on the fence for now and wait to see how things turn out.

I don't think this game is suitable for you.

You can create custom characters and the story mode is available so those aren't issues.

From my experience, I had to rest often due to tough combat + encumbrance issues.

And the Kingdom building mechanic is the integral part of the game, it will end in game over if you neglect your kingdom. I didn't find it particulalrly burdensome though, and lots of quests are also unlocked through kingdom system.

Aha! It's good to hear from someone who's actually played the game.

I was afraid it might not be for me. Thanks for the heads up.

@Farflame, agreed. If it's too limiting responses based on alignment is not a good thing. I'm just saying that limiting dialogue options based on your character (including alignment) is not necessarily a bad thing. It's all about implementation.

I suspect there may not actually be that many different and meaningful outcomes to each conversation; it could just be worded as from particular perspectives.

Looks ok, as generic as it gets, but this could scratch that pure, iconic high fantasy crpg adventure itch.
Tbh, I'm not really interested in kingdom mechanic, rpgs typically suck at any type of resource management.
Watched a few videos, gameplay was classic RtwP mess, but at least it was over ( mercifully ) quickly.
Writing was overall ok, didn't have any "witty" wordplay/humor ( BGII) but it didn't drag itself with too many unnecessary adjectives, descriptives and lore dumps. I did expect a bit more dialogue options ( for crpg).
Overall, seems to me like a pretty decent crossover between Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate.

This would have been an insta-buy for me if it had been turn-based. As it is, I'm already sort of burned out on RTwP so will wait till it drops to $10.

I remember encumbrance being a pia in icewind dale; and while it was a pia in the ass the game was better for it in the long run; even though i cursed everytime i couldn't carry one more piece of loot.
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However, given the intention for additional content I'll wait till the game is finished. It is one thing to have a stand alone expansion; but to add additional content to the middle of the game - well i'm gonna wait for the complete experience.

Roses are red.
Gaming is fun.
You are too encumbered to run.

Well you two should stop being loot whores. ;)
See that sparkling sword with + 2 enchantment? Leave it there, wisdom.

Seriously though, all rpgs need to switch to grid/load out system with autosorting of typical items.

- I can't sell this oddity, what if I need it later for a quest?

- I can't sell this weapon because what if its needed for crafting or the stats.

- I can't use this potion because there might be an emergency
*emergency happens and I don't use it*
- I can't use this potion because what if there is a BIGGER emergency.

- I can't spend 2million in gold because what if there is a vendor ahead that has something I need.

At some point I realize I'm like a young Smaug, but its too late… much much too late.

And thats why I end up carrying 300,000kgs of loot and 4 supply drops safehouses scattered across the world.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/…88/292/7e2.jpg