One reason is that you get an ruleset that is quite balanced. Despite having to adapt the rules to a computer game the basics principles still work.

Nothing and everything… As targeting with Aoe is completely effortless In both systems… But one is simplified and broken down, the other is not. Rtwp gives you the freedom, Turn base takes that freedom away. Just so you get a sense of order and more accurate information that comes with it.
The turn-based system makes the game even more artificial and breaks the illusion of realism with its restrictions, especially movement…

yeah, you're right it's tested, proven worthy. Experimenting comes with its risks. PoE Deadfire comes to mind as an example.

One strong, deep characteristic of this site is a relentless disdain, hatred for anything gameplay related.

Balance is achieved against parametres. Parametres involved in UgoIgo and RTwP are fundamentally different.

RTwP stresses the relationship between time and space in a way UgoIgo struggles to achieve (even though so called UgoIgo cRPGs take the ice compared to tabletop games etc)

Usually, in these cRPGs, movement goes unhindered, it is certain.
In RTwP, speed, acceleration are involved, movement is a factor of uncertainty as it may be slowed down or stopped.

And, in this regard, these cRPGs take the ice. In tabletop gaming, the issue of pre measuring matters. Players might know for sure how much a character might move but they are not allowed to pre measure. Or they may be allowed to pre measure but character movement is uncertain (base distance plus random distance)

It is not possible to balance when a parametre is essential in one case and not in another case. It does not happen.

Taking XCOM/PP as an example: They are balanced around AoE grenade launcher thing.

Weapons are fully precise and the shell travels instaneously. Movement is banned from the equation. Visual cues are unnecessary.

In RTwP, they are imprecise and generally, the grenade travels slowly. Information is carried through visual cues. Between the moment they are fired and the moment of the impact, the battlefield configuration might have changed inbetween. It takes the use of tactics to ensure their efficiency.

It is not possible to balance in RTwP as in UgoIgo.

Back to the cRPG thing because quite often, in table thing, those weapons scatter, they are imprecise even though UgoIgo usually struggles to translate a possible evasion before impact.

RTwP and UgoIgo operate on fundamentally different approaches. It is not possible to conciliate an approach that makes movement central and an approach that makes movement accessory.

I disagree that both are effortless. AoE targeting in RTwP can get really confusing with a lot of going on. I'll use PoE as an example once again. You have six characters to watch over and position them to avoid friendly fire. You can't just freely move them since there are penalties for combat disengagement. Then you have to factor in the movement of the enemies and predict where they on the battlefield they will be when you cast the spell. It takes a few seconds to cast the spell so you can't target their current location. Add to that a lot of visual effects (fire, magic particles, etc.) and the screen can get really cluttered. The way PoE combats this is by having an option to slow down time in battles. Sure, you can learn how to factor all of that in in your targeting, and it's not that hard, but it is a skill some people don't have and don't want to learn.

In TB combat you don't have that many things to factor in. Only party positioning matters and it's usually done before combat and in the first few rounds.

The rest of your comment I'll disregard since it's not relevant. I'll just say that I agree that real time combat is more realistic and adds more tactical options to combat. I like both and play what I feel like playing at that time. And to get on topic, I really like that you'll be able to switch the type of combat at any point in this game.

The point has been made for years now.
Contrary to this site claim, UgoIgo is not a made up claim. What is common is also uncommon, at least for gamers, players who are interested in gameplay.

Making turn based a product that is already turn based makes sense for superior minded people.

Simple minded people struggle with the mental gymnastics and therefore are confined with making a turn based product UgoIgo.

PoE is an example.

UgoIgo and RTwP approaches are different. RTwP requires to plan ahead before jumping in action whereas UgoIgo allows to plan as it unfolds.

Testing a product demands it to be tested under conditions.

A RTwP product demands to be tested in RTwP or distorsion happens.

PoE was assessed when being played PwRT which does not allow an evaluation of balance.

RTwP puts an emphasis on reliability, speed etc
Planning ahead relies on a high degree of reliability, things must happen.

UgoIgo allows a low degree of reliability, especially as UgoIgo products are designed that way.

Missing a hit may be disastrous in RTwP as it might ruin a full pre planned sequence.
Missing in UgoIgo is much less as the miss may be factored directly in the incoming plan.

PoE builds were directed toward improved reliability. Which is pointless when being played UgoIgo.

Missing a 75pc hit is dangerous in RTwP hence the necessity to move toward 100pc. Missing it in UgoIgo is just a possible outcome that does not jeopardize the rest of a pre planned sequence.

Obviously too hard since UgoIgo players do not acquire the skill. With the result of not having an offer in RTwP party based products.

UgoIgo had to suppress RTwP or UgoIgo players would have felt insecure.

What balance are you talking about? I have never seen in my 30 years of playing any balance.
Can you give me an example of a game with a story which is by your standards balanced for experienced player minimax and not even a hardcore one at that… Where do you see the balance? I really want to know…

AND for the love of God can someone explain the difference between Ugoigo vs Turn-based. Or at list give me some examples of Ugoigo and some Turn-based games that aren't Ugoigo… Because I get a feeling was sucked into hell limbo where not only there is Turn-based vs RTwp but now there is the third evil and it's called Ugoigo!
and I tried the search and nothing relevant popped on. Thank you…

Utter nonsense. There are plenty of people who enjoy both, I suspect a lot more people do than people who refuse to play one over or the other. I'm pretty sure there are more people who own both RTwP products and turn based (Ugoigo) products than there are people who exclusively buy either. Note that unlike you I don't claim my opinion is a fact, so I'll settle for that.

Reading forums like this one or Steam or Codex forums even more so one might get the impression that isn't the case, but that's because (I think) the people who have extremely strong feelings towards one combat system will be much more likely to post their praise and/or rage. Most of us are fine either way and will just roll our eyes when the discussion over which system is superior gets heated.

@Dolby, the common definition is exactly the one you're using. Chien has his own ideas on what is proper and will therefore call what you or I would call turn based UGOIGO. The point being that any game can be turn or round based within a real time system. An example would be Baldurs Gate, where every round is 6 seconds, and all characters can perform a specific number of tasks each round. You can't mash a button to make your fighter hit faster, he'll still perform his set number of attacks per round. Hence the system is in fact "Turn based".

Personally I would refer to that system as a real time system with rounds as opposed to a real time system with action combat (where you can in fact mash the buttons…). And a Turn based system (to me) is a system where your opponent doesn't move when you do.

Thank you. I wanted to reply the same thing, but quit writing the comment half way through. I just can't argue with Chien over stupid stuff like that.

Well, Poe deadfire who had the slow you are referring to.
In my opinion, that game had huge problems with the story and more so with it setting the vast majority of islands just felt empty a gimmick at best. Josh Sawyer's idea was just game-breaking as sales showed that. if you ask me it wasn't the combat.
Even if you called it cluttered which I have no problem with… Peo 2 would be great if it had a more of a mercenary dark classic medieval vibe even more so as Poe had.
And they could always slow the animations and stayed away from slow-motion it worked fine in PoE one. Even so, yes the slow-motion worked I guess.
Anyway, I never had any problems hitting stuff, especially in RTwp. So I could argue that Tb is harder for AOE targeting and if my GF can hit stuff in DA anyone can.:) The only problem I had was due to the range and that was in Turn-based games. Movement per turn btw is the most annoying and immersion-breaking thing ever put in a video game. Truly it's the one thing I hate about TB games.

Did you ever get into a position in a turn-based game where you couldn't hit something with a spell because it was ONE, OnE freaking tile away, so this character was like actually doing nothing for that turn!?! I was always like WTF, deep inside peace of me just died.
The melee is even more ridiculous!!
The enemy is right there you can spit into his face. BUT, NOOO!
For some artificial reason, he can't hit him with a sword…
So now he's just stuck there, doing nothing! All hell breaks loose around him but he-she does nothing!?!? Broken game! End of the story rage quit!:))

Ok, I didn't rage quit! SO, I`ll use the all-mighty option they gave me, buff my ass, Or even better I'll use THe OVERwatch. Ha, what a joke that is. So the next turn. The OVERwatch thing goes off after all the other guy needs to move ONE tile to smack my guy even though he's right there! Spitting distance…
Now the fun part! IT didn't hit!! ARRGGG
They both miss, like literally they hit the air, gotta love RNG.:)
Yey, NOw it's my turn again!! Surely he can hit him now! He's buffed up or he trained beforehand with overwatch 90% hit chance this should work…
Guess what, IT Didn't so we spend 3 turns doing nothing talk about wasted 3 minutes of my life wherein an RTwp it would be done in 10 secs.
And to top it off, most of the Turn-based games don't use parry animations or armor hits. They just hit air or more commonly animations go through the 3D mesh like it was a hit even if no damage was applied…
At this point, if the story isn't good I normally just quit and go complain to my GF how devs don't know shit about game making and how my Rpg would be epic and we geek out about stuff, oh the good times. And yes we both play TB and Rtwp. YOu have to, the cRPGs are just too few not to. Again, I welcome this idea, it's great…

Most RTwp CRPGs are like that, no? I see a Round as just an animation… of whatever you're doing… Easier to make, after all, you can't control more than one character at any given time. And button mashing without this system can lead to stun locking enemies and that's just bad… Gothic had that problem…

I read your whole comment and I agree. You are listing some shortcomings of the TB combat, but someone can interpret those as the challenges. You're one square shy of being able to hit the enemy? Tough luck, try to factor in the movement range into your strategy. Your party members are missing 90% of their overwatch shots? Invest in reflexes/accuracy/whatever the corresponding skill is.

But you still haven't addressed my point that AoE targeting in RT is inherently harder than TB due to more things you need to factor in (apart from the anecdote how you and your GF don't have problems with it, which is just that, anecdote).

It's easier because you can fix the position, adapt at any given time. You can improvise move for a 1/2 of a tile or less. You can do it at any time, pause at any time 100 times if you want … You're not bound by rules of TB. More freedom theoretically means more accurate fireballs. The only limitation is your skill as a player. In Tb, you have others that actively make aiming harder… One of them is the one tile thing that I was raging about before. In my opinion, it makes the game artificially harder because of the rules of a system and not the engagement - the fight itself…

Coming up 1 square short is not solely a TB thing. It happens in RTWP as well, You just don’t notice it because you go right in to the next round. Set BG to pause at the end of each round and you will have characters that just move and don’t make it to attack.

No one has mentioned my biggest RTWP frustration, so maybe it’s just me but…

Spacing, Most encounters end up in just a cluster of characters beating on each other. Even if you turn off companion AI ( it’s a little better) you will still get lured to help other characters and all end up in the same spot.

For instance, you’ll have a couple tanks upfront trying to hold the line with a support cleric, a mage or 2 in the back and a thief circling for backstabs. As much as you try to keep spacing it usually falls apart. Enemies will target the companions causing the most damage which ends up being a mage or thief. So they will break engagement taking the AOO and head for said mage or thief. This typically results in 1 dead mage or thief as you cant heal them, get them out of they way or protect them with fighters in time. Also once everyone is clustered together it makes your spell casters useless as you cant avoid hitting your companions. So your stuck with debuff, buff or single target spells like Magic missile. This is especially problematic when your forced to fight in a small room or hallway. The Maerwald encounter in POE is a good example. Fortunately it was easy enough to just steam roll him but again there’s no spacing.

Being able to better maintain spacing is the reason I prefer TB but I don’t dislike RTWP and have no problem playing it. Of course I also enjoy just straight up realtime combat as well. If the combats fun I can get behind most anything as they all will have little annoying quirks.

None of that has anything to do with the act of targeting. AoE targeting in TB games is like shooting a stationary target; AoE targeting in RTwP games is like shooting a moving target with a delay between when you pull the trigger and when the weapon fires. The first thing is easier.

Utter flashes of brilliance going on.Basically, calling a turn based game turn based is having one's ideas about what is proper whereas crafting an expression is being in the common.

Massive result of two centuries of institutionalized double standards. Which usually ends the same:inversion.

BG is a turn based RTwP game. It is not UgoIgo.

The trick of reducing turn based to UgoIgo. A game can play with opponents planning their turn and the turn unfolding simultaneously.

Turn based is a vast category. A bit like human beings. It is known that in the american system thinking that certain human beings are in fact human beings is having one's own mind about what is proper.

The expectations should be on stupid stuff. Brilliance is left to others, the army of light.

I agree with many of the pros and cons mentioned in both systems. I still like both. Never thought about the problems Dolby mentions regarding being one square short though. And hit chances are the same in either system usually.
@Dolby, I found PoE2 superior to the first one, mainly because the fist one was too dark and medieval. Different tastes I guess. I do agree on the empty islands though. And if I compare the combat in PoE to PF:KM I find Pathfinder much less chaotic. One reason for that is probably my familiarity with the DnD system, and how easy it is for me to visualise dice compared to a random number between 1-100 like PoE has. Guess that's a reason as well as any too use a system like that which you were discussing earlier?

Ah, ok here we go.

You have two mages one with a fireball Mage (B) the other with a blink-teleport spell mage (A).
Mage A is in front with agro, Mage B is in the back trying to cast the fireball.
Right, two games…
One RTwp the other TB
In both games, you got the same skills… Blink and fireball… Both point and click targeting…
RTwp Game: You teleport the mage A from the front behind the Mage B who can freely cast the Fireball spell. Simple easy no one is even close to the targets for FF.

TB game: Mage A Fucked up his initiative roll. So is going last after all the enemies and mage B. Mage B is first one this turn but he can't cast his spell do to mage A being in the way.

The first example Rtwp: It's pretty easy to target the Aoe spell without hitting the mage A, cause he's not in the way… right?
Second example TB: It is impossible to target the fireball without hitting the mage A due to the TB system itself.
One easy is. The second one is impossible. Now you decided which one is easier…
The only way to fix this is to have a Group initiative and let the player pick the order of actions and not all RPGs do that…And if you do Group initiative, the side that starts first gets a huge advantage.

@ChienAboyeur, you misunderstand. I don't claim you're actually factually wrong in saying BG is turn based, since as a matter of fact it is if you look at the mechanics. What I am claiming is that you aren't using the terms in the way that they are commonly perceived. That's your choice, but it doesn't make your already hard to interpret posts any easier to understand for people who aren't regulars on this forum. Perhaps you should focus less on being right and more on being understood, especially since you actually have really interesting insights to share once in a while when you aren't sprouting hyperbole about institutionalized double standards and superior people.

The "Trick"of reducing Turn based to simply mean UGOIGO was something that happened long ago in regards to computer games.

That is one very specific situation. I had that only happen in tight spaces and it was 100% of the time because I failed to position my party properly. AoE spells are not for tight spaces unless you don't have anything else available.

But that kind of situation can go either way. For example you have an enemy that can teleport or dash in front of your character. What do you do?

RT:
a) Target the enemy's current position. But in the 6s it takes to cast a spell the enemy had moved and your meteor shower or a fireball hits the empty ground.
b) Try to predict where the enemy will move. Since that is the enemy that teleports/dashes in front of your character, you will most likely hit your character as well.
c) Wait till the enemy uses their teleport/dash and then move your character away. But in that case that character suffers penalty for breaking engagement or is getting hit by attacks of opportunity. The enemy will follow you, too so it's hard to shake them off. Plus, while you're trying to position two of your characters so one can cast their spell they are essentially out of combat (they are not doing damage/bufffing/debuffing/healing); your other characters suffer.

TB:
a) The enemy goes first. It will most likely use up their action points if it teleports/dashes and will not be able to attack your character. Or if they don't, they won't be able to use their higher level abilities (unless it's some boss with ridiculous amount of AP). On your turn (depending which one of your character goes first) you either move your engaged character and suffer disengagement penalty or you position your caster so they don't damage your engaged character.

b) You go first. Congratulations! You just choose your spell and cast it on the enemy.

Yes, it's a specific case but it shows the nature of TB and its limits.
Where RTWp does not have those. Targeting is just one of the cases and you can plan, use skills, practice to overcome the problems you describe in RTWp. You can't do that in TB as its limits are hardcoded in the game engines system by design.

I'll give you one more example and it's common in TB RPGs and it's game-breaking… None targeting related.
You and your fellow mage B stumble upon a group of people in the center of the district. In the group, there is a dark-skinned elven girl let us call her Viconia.:) She is surrounded by men, who hate dark elves. They want to have their way with her and burn her as a witch.
She begs you for help, you agree to help.
Now you have a sidequest: Save the elf girl.
You ask them to let her go, they refuse and the fight starts and they try to kill the elf girl.
Same example two games you got the same skills in both games etc.

RTWp: You can cast a protective spell on her from the start to save her and buy the time you need to finish off the enemies before she dies.
You can stun them or heal her or whatever you got available. It's a hard fight but you do it… Sidequest completes you get a reward and a new companion, the elf girl.

TB: Here it totally depends on your luck if you save the girl making the quest artificially hard… IF you roll low initiative all the enemies will hit her first, you don't get to cast the protective spell or stuns heal and she dies before you even get your turn… You kill the enemies but you get no reward and you just lost a huge part of the game. A she is now unavailable as a companion. If you don't reload the game and effectively cheat.

And exactly this similar thing happens in Divinity original sin 2 when you first come to the island fort prison. And it happens in the majority of RPGs.
People forget how much freedom they give up when they play turn-based games… All to get a bit more simplified and less cluttered combat. Which can be totally avoided if you try hard in RTwp… It is all masked by the illusion of combat be it in Rtwp or TB.
Rtwp just has more freedom that is all. In my opinion, it is a better option.

You're assuming the rpg needs to have standard dnd rules.
Devs could easily make the woman have a protective self cast prior to combat. They could have a different system not based on initiative like banner saga. They could have many things to stop that situation from happening. You're assuming dnd is turn based here which it isn't.

On top of all that you're assuming the elf girl is helpless and can't defend herself.



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I'm not assuming anything. It's just an example. Showing the limitations of TB.
Of course, devs can do that. She can even be unkillable. Or she can be an epic fighter with higher lvl, better gear to own them all. But that is not the point of the example or the quest. If they do that, it's not you who saves her but the devs… And the quest becomes pointless and loses its added value.
What if she's not a companion Npc but just random. Devs don't give a shit if she lives or dies… Only you do. So now even with a Banner sagas alternating initiative which comes with its own problems btw, it can happen, she dies. You had no control over the events, as the guy with the heal, shield, stun, whatever didn't get his Go (round) in time to save her. The guy before him got a crit and she died. It brakes the game's illusion which is thin as it is due to other limitations of the game engines. There are lots of other examples like that.

Every gameplay mechanic and every system has its advantages and shortcomings. In my eyes you created some specific examples and you use them to make your point. But at the end it proves nothing. Fact is not created just by saying so.

Ending turn one step away from enemy in TB, unable to atack is annoying and is proof of TB system limitations (or even inferiority compared to RT)? It only proves lack of imagination and patience. In RT with turns, similar thing happens when you move character to enemy in middle of turn and then you have to wait 3-4 seconds to be able to atack.

I fully understand and have no problem to respect fact that you prefer RT or RTwP system more. And I get you have your reasons for that. But none of those reasons are factual and do not prove inferiority of TB system.

I, personally, can enjoy both systems. It more matters to me how well its executed and if ruleset behind it is solid.

Isn't that the point though?

The girl could die, or she can live. If you always save her then the game is too much of the same.

If the devs did things well then the pcs initiative is likely to be a bit higher than the enemies at that point in the game and the likelihood of every member of your party rolling lower than the enemy is low.

The devs need to ensure the aggro system also works well. All you're saying has nothing to do with Tb or rtwp. In rtwp the enemy could attack the girl faster than your protective spell casts and she does too. It's about having a well implemented system rather than the system itself…

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I'll chime in and agree with Pladio, many of the points Dolby raises are legit, but they're problems with encounter design and mechanics, not necessarily with a turn based system.

That's also my take on Turn Based vs. RtwP, either system can work great or be horrible or everything in between, it's much more a matter about how it's implemented than what system is used.

If I would list my top 10 games the distribution between the two would probably be pretty even with a slight advantage towards turn based, mainly because it's a system more commonly used. Apart from The infinity games, PoE, NWN and PF:KM I can't really think of many RPG's that have used RTwP and done it well? I could probably list 5-10 more games with RTwP that I've played but didn't enjoy as much, but that's about it.

I played PoE and PoE2 in RTwP and while both games are flawed, I didnt have serious issues towards the choice of combat system. Untill I started my TB mode gameplay of PoE2.

Which made combat so much more enjoyable for me. Suddenly I had much higher sense of control over the details of each encounter. I started to use skills I didnt use before to such extent it had influence on character building.

Since then I think that game system and mechanics were not in harmony with choice and execution of primary combat system (RTwP). I dont really think it makes RtWP system better or worse, rather then that its a matter of overall execution.

You're going from one extreme to the other. Couldn't the encountered be balanced so to not be impossible but also not be impossible to lose. Balance is an important part of game design. If either of the things you mention happen I would say the game is not balanced correctly.

I gave you examples that can be recreated or tested in any game engine with any TB system. The only way a statement becomes fact is when you can verify it see it with your own eyes, test it.
If you go look at gameplay on YouTube Of Divinity original sin 2 or you got the game yourself. I think people rate it up there with other good games and it's popular that's why I picked it.
You can see this example of the girl getting killed all the time in the first 5 minutes of the prison. You can test it on your own. The same as other specific cases, why? Because it based on the same limitations. The only way to fix it is by devs doing even more artificial things and brake the immersion and the illusion and affect other things.
You or I can add a lot of other examples to test them but we will get the same results.
I'm not saying Rtwp is perfect if it was, we wouldn't have other systems. I think that's clear to anyone, no? I'm just saying TB is more limiting, artificial, it limits the freedom of RTwp. This feature in the quote let us call it *movement* is more limiting and more artificial. It takes longer it's less accurate and so on. Is it better? Well, it can be and if you are a fan of TB games it definitely is better then RTwp.
Yes, they do, go test them and you will see. Make your self a project pick two games you like, one RTwp and other TB try the same thing in both games and see what happens…The Difference is huge as are the limitations. Don't forget you're not testing which one you like more! People confuse those things.
I can respect that. I can enjoy both… One could say I prefer a brunette with blue eyes over a blond with blue eyes. I could enjoy the blond or both but the brunette would kill me. :)

Coincidentally, I am working on such project for years already. And my results show otherwise… :-)

The problem is that you don't have control over what happens. It doesn't matter if she dies or lives. It matters why she died or didn't or one could say how… if you had an option a chance, to save her.
Yes in Rtwp that can happen but you can still try to save her you always get a chance no matter what RTwp system you play. In TB that's not the case.
anyway, I'm just glad they are doing both systems…:)))

Hand over, give the details! I'm interested! What results? Why all the secrecy!!! We are all fellow fans of CRPGs.
Please share why you think TB is better! I want to know.:))

This has been a great discussion! Lot of things I never considered on both sides.

For me, however, it is really simple why I prefer RTwP - time commitment. TB is just so slow. I didn't mind it all in Tides of Numeria as there wasn't a lot of combat. I also don't mind it much in a bloober like Opernecia (sp?)

But DDOS2 … near the end I was slogging through with pure grit and determination, desperate to finish the game before I died of old age. Then screw up, which you may not notice for a while, or die at the end, and another hour long battle to repeat.

I know the biggest sour tasted was near the very end, when I hadn't saved, and had spent over 4 hours slogging through one hard fight after another .. then my game crashed. Even though I was on the very end (about 97% done) I uninstalled the game and have never gone back.

TB does have some nice control but for me it feels a bit unrealistic and artificial (yea I know any game is unrealistic and artificial) because of the way time freezes. While sometimes I would like to have more control, as I fully admit RTwP can be hectic at times, I simply prefer the more natural flow of RTwP. I think some games also let you adjust the speed a lot, which combined with pause, helps a lot.

But in the end, for me, it really boils down to time. I am not a major combat fan these days like I was in the past - and also enjoyed TB a lot back in those days. I prefer faster battles and just don't want to spend my two hours of gaming some night getting through a handful of fights. I want to do things - explore, have some battles, do quests, etc.

I can see TB being nice for a boss fight - as those are meant to be more intense and strategic.

Regardless I am with @purpleblob in much preferring RTwP, especially for this game.

That being said I see some good points on both sides in this thread.

Again, that's just bad game design. It is a game designers job to make sure such things don't happen, just like it's programmer's job to implement good pathfinding in the RTwP game so your party member doesn't move past all the enemies and get hit with attacks of opportunity by all of them when a more sane route is available (something that had happened to me a lot in older games like BG and NWN). Both systems have their limitations, but both have strengths, too.

I personally enjoy both RTWP and TB.

In re to these discussions on spell-casting, I have to admit that RTWP did alter the way I played PF:KM with magic-using characters. I tended rely on buff spells. I think it had more to do with laziness than anything else; it was just easier. I also found them to generally be more effective than AoE spells anyway.

I'm glad that PF:WotR will implement both systems. I'm guessing I will stick to RTWP for most battles and go to TB with the harder battles where I want to micro-manage more.

Very much so, the damage dealt by an AoE spell is nothing compared to a buff or direct damage spell of the same level. I only use Fireballs to sometimes pull mobs into attacking me in a more advantageous position. Sure it's FUN to throw them mid combat as well, but not very effective.

This site is recorded history. It archives. Written many times already.

One consequence is that words, propositions might be checked over the course of time.

Now one example that might warm a bit memory (because it is known): the documentation of the push over PoE to make it a UgoIgo product. Over various updates, changes were examined to assess how they would bring closer to the day of UgoIgo. Various remarks were made like RTwP requires a greater skillset than UgoIgo etc to explain the push, that RTwP products have no audience… Stuff like that.

The conclusion happened with an introduction of a UgoIgo mode in PoE2.

Getting an impression of this or that about players' preferences, their numbers… is irrelevant.

What matters is the outcome: the addition of a UgoIgo mode to RTwP products.
Once again, opinions might or might not be factually based.

Are held as facts the following: a UgoIgo mode was added to PoE2, a UgoIgo mode is going to be added to this vid product.
And indeed this is stated as facts. Now people can form different opinions, a UgoIgo mode was never added to PoE2, there is no plan to add such a mode to this vid product. Maybe all this never happened.

Now back to the assumption that players would enjoy both, put them on equivalent grounds.

Very correct when considering that out of their blind passion, players demand the same when it comes to UgoIgo products, a RTwP mode must be added. There is obviously a list of products that fits the bill, players petition, rage, bang on the door of UgoIgo products so a RTwP mode is added.

It certainly is not like a hierarchy has been established between RTwP and UgoIgo products, that RTwP products must accomodate UgoIgo, must make room for UgoIgo whereas the reverse is incorrect, UgoIgo products must not make room for a RTwP mode.

RTwP products must be inclusive for UgoIgo players. UgoIgo products must not be inclusive for RTwP players.

This never happened of course. Only people who are reported to claim their opinions as facts could make such an unbased observation.

If that did happen and that is a big if, the american system designates the usual suspects. Time for an unPC moment.

RtwP products require a larger skillset than UgoIgo. It requires a different approach, a different culture. All cultures are not equal.

And UgoIgo players, when they come to RTwP products, they do not want to learn the RTwP ways, they do not want to learn how to be a RTwP gamer. They want to stick to their UgoIgo ways.
They do not want to assimilate.

By the american system, this should ring a bell.

UnPC moment: muslims, they want to enforce their sharia UgoIgo on everyone else. Women, they consider themselves equal to men and consider RTwP as a bastion for patriarchy. Blacks, they are intellectually inferior and RTwP requires more intellectual skills than UgoIgo, UgoIgo is their affirmative action program.

Three categories of usual suspects as designated by the american system.

The PC brigade or simple minded people by the way will come, claiming that in fact, considering the demographics of customers, those who are banging to the gates, demanding to be included, are white men (the absolute evil)
They are the ones who do not want to assimilate, who are used to being the center of everything and feel insecure as soon as they are left aside.
They are the ones who do not want to assimilate.

As a result of it, simple minded people will also rightly be categorized as people posturing their opinions as facts.

Once again, none of this ever happened. There is no hierarchy between UgoIgo and RTwP. If there were one, people behind it would be known.