Scaring off the female members
 

Well purpleblob has left; or at least is threatening to do so. It seems RPGWatch is somewhat cancerous to the female audience. Note I include myself in this. It is easy to get aggressive when posting an argument and this isn't conducive to keeping our more sensitive members happy.

I actually had a talk with a female moderator several years ago. She thought I hated her and I really thought she was great. It's just that our tastes differed and I would disagree with her in many gaming posts. She ended up leaving, but I'm pretty sure we had ironed out our differences. I've tried to change my posts to attacking the subject matter rather than the poster, but the line gets fuzzy sometimes.

I'm trying to think of female members that even bother to post much:
Eye and Zloth are about it. Jaz and GG post on occasion and we could have several female posters who don't out themselves as female. I know I wouldn't if I was a girl.

Many members left for some reasons, but because most of members are male or present themselves as male I can't be sure the site is cancerous for females.

Most probably the sensitiveness you've mentioned is the key. I mean it's an online site with a variety of characters and even more different opinions. It's impossible to remain "unscatched".

What needs to be changed for the better, dunno.

Scaring off? Hardly a good start, nut.

You raise an important issue, 'nut. I'm not sure what to do about it. except for everyone to be a bit critical to their own posts. I try to do that, but I can't guarantee that I always succeed.

It's not always women who suffer from "scaring" posts, of course. But at least some places seem to be more hostile to women that men. That being said, personally I think the watch is among the better sites, but there's still room for improvement.

a pibbur who is…

On the contrary, rpg watch is one of the most "harmless" and well behaved forums I have ever seen. I liked purple blob, a shame to see her go, but just because not everyone shares your opinion or tastes is no reason to leave a forum. Just think how boring this place would be if we were all forced to agree with each other. There would be no point in even posting really. I won't bring up politics except to say, when one side is convinced that any held opinion different than their own must be wrong or even evil, and are convinced that their way is the only way, they are the ones who very likely are actually in the wrong. (just a general comment and it has nothing to do with this situation in particular)

To sum up, its fine to have a different opinion, even one strongly held and passionate such as thinking turn based is superior to real time combat - or vice versa - just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

If this site covered more mobile games it would have more female members.. :P

Well, rudeness has become more of a thing here at the Watch recently. Again, not saying I'm innocent of this either. I can be as snarky as anyone on a given day. I'm thick-skinned though, so if someone disagrees with me I really don't give two fecal deposits. That may not be the case with everyone and perhaps we need to scale it back. Just a thought.

We've lost a ton of regulars in the last 3 years and I don't know if it's attrition/age or something else. Should I change topic title? Losing our regulars perhaps?

ok, fine, new rule says we all must say we love real time combat and anyone who thinks differently and likes turn-based instead is a misogynist pig. :biggrin:

I'm in internet chats/forums since 1990. So I have learnt a few things:

• respect your discussion partners
• respect their opinion and arguments
• try to understand the viewpoint from others
• exchange arguments in a polite way
• don't try to overpower discussion partners - if they have a different opinion after exchanging arguments simply agree to disagree
• don't feed trolls - they only have fun with your anger
• brace yourself in "holy" discussions like "What is an RPG?"; "turn-based vs. real time vs. RTwP" etc.
• don't go ad hominem
• simply leave a discussion when there is nothing more to say
• last but not least: be friendly and make a joke now and then - it is a hobby not work!

Well, I don't see things that way here. Or at least, I wouldn't say that.

I know you spoke for yourself but as for me, I don't (include myself in this).

@crpgnut
Afaik @Zloth is a man

I don’t agree this site is scaring off the female members, well, not anymore.
In the old days it seemed to be more of a man’s place, thanks to some remarks that were made by some (a small minority, I think). We have a new TOS now that tries to deal with all those unpleasant things, and I’m very strict seeing everybody acts accordingly.

If a female member complains to me via PM I’ll investigate the matter, with a 100% attention, since I think it is important for this site to have female members. I know I am not alone in this and that all moderators and administrators would act the same.

I don’t know if female members are more sensitive. I doubt that. I can think of some men that are rather touchy. It just depends on your personality, I think.
Apart from that, everybody likes to get a compliment now and then, or the idea (some) people appreciate what you’re saying. Or doing. (With a few exceptions.) It is human.

Not saying we should turn this place into a ‘make love not war’ area, just saying I can understand people leaving when they got the idea they are alone and on their own - especially when something else is happening irl, that demands (too) much attention, so there is little patience left to deal with the more unpleasant posts on top of that. I have seen over the years this is often the case, that something else is going on. Not saying this is the case with @purpleblob though.

Also, please add these as well:

• be aware that everybody knows everything yet nobody knows anything. Fact.
• always respect that everybody knows better anything than you. Their loss.
• always be aware that no one understands your greatness. Your loss.
• remember, that your wisdom is just a bunch of bytes on a server. Meaningless.
• always laugh hard on the absurdity of the internet
• laugh harder when you realize that you are part of it
• switch off now and then and do not forget to walk the dog/kids/husband.

Finally, if in doubt, grab your interstellar traveling towel and:


/sarcasm

Is this a sausage thread?

[removed, NSFW]

I agree with your assessment about the Watch being rather tame. Still, at some point, it can become tiring to face nothing but contrary opinions. Even if they are presented in a polite and well-meaning way. Then, it may be time to leave not because the community as such is "bad", but simply because your interests are diverging. At least, that did happen to me in the past.

I never felt the site was overly hostile - its one of the nicer sites by far compared to what I have seen on many other forums. For the most part I feel safe and comfortable here.

The only thing that bothers me are now and then a few folks like to attack people for their game taste (i.e. anyone who likes this game must be a mindless idiot with no taste … as a mild example) which I think does nothing to promote a discussion.

If I get really upset over a thread I just back away and stop posting/visiting for a while. Then return once it has faded. Best not to fuel a fire, let it burn out from lack of attention.

Well… why is she leaving? As far as I know it has nothing to do with her being a woman but of course I don't know for sure.

We have many male posters who have left over the years, and that has never lead to a discussion of male sensitivity, so to me that's a bit far fetched and slightly insulting towards women. I do however realise that female posters will be in a minority and I acknowledge that could be ONE reason for someone to feel out of place, but it feels like generalisation to claim that's what has happened here.

@txa1265 honestly curious, what has been a condescending sexist dismissal in this thread?

I would rather lose someone who's harassing our members, be they male or female, rather than the innocent folks. That type of behaviour just doesn't seem like it goes with this site at all. And if someone is harassing a member I would hope they'd bring it to the attention of someone in authority here, rather than leave us. Because if there is one person being attacked, there are likely others as well.

Always liked Purple. Hope she's not leaving.

I hope we don't scare the ladies. I always like having them around. For one year of my schooling, I lived on an all-male dorm floor. Yeah, that really sucked.

I don't claim to follow every conversation or thread here so I agree that if someone is harassing purpleblob or others then that is wrong of course and maybe they should be given a warning or something to stop them from engaging in that behavior.

What I have noticed is there is an occasionally really snarky or insulting comment here, but from what I have seen, it usually comes from people who don't post much and have like under 100 posts or so. Most of the "regulars" seem ok to me, but maybe one or two do seem a bit obnoxious or argumentative at times, but that is just how some people can be on forums. I haven't seen it go over the line but don't read every thread either so maybe I missed something.

Anyway, I think Eye does a superb job as moderator and almost always agree with her takes and comments regarding moderation here.

Lastly, may I dare suggest that rpg gaming is mostly a male hobby and there is nothing wrong with that. Just like there is nothing wrong with certain hobbies that are female oriented and attract mostly females. There are, in fact, many hobbies which attract primarily either males or females and that is just the way it is. It's silly to think all hobbies will have equal amounts of males and females, that isn't the way the world works (thank god)

Oh sweet! Nope, not a gal. Even got a beard. But I think it's cool that you got confused. Gotta love the internet! Now, am I right handed or left handed? ;)

RPGs are more male dominated but I *do* think there's something wrong with that. There should, IMHO, be about as many aimed at women as are aimed at men, with the majority being aimed at both. This tradition of "guys making games for guys" is economically crazy! (I think they need to start aiming at the pensioner/retiree crowd, too, but that's another topic.)

Same, and also it seems quite sexist to imply that women are more easily scared off of a forum by arguments over the relative merits of different games, than men would be.

I think it would be great to have more female rpg gamers here, but as you noted, they aren't attracted to the genre itself as much as males, for whatever reason.

I think its true that "Do men post, and women view?" (the title of an interesting study I found online about this) in terms of general participation of forums and message boards. Of course, there are female-centric ones where that isn't true. But on average, I do think men are much more active on say, gaming message boards than women.

Apparently, there are several reasons having to do with psychology and emotions and other complicated things such as if one is extroverted or not, and according to this particular study, men use forums more to express their opinions while women are more interested in maintaining social connections and just using the social media for passing time and entertainment.

https://cyberpsychology.eu/article/view/11564/10364

Any truth to this is down to harassment from gatekeepers. There is NOTHING inherently more appealing about RPGs to males. In fact, this whole statement strikes me as blatantly sexist. This is why males and females both end up censured and ridiculed for what they like if it doesn't fit into strict socially defined gender norms (like a guy who knits or a woman who likes to work on cars).

I agree Eye does a bang-up job, and I totally knew Zloth is a dude.

Nice to know we have someone on the site who's fully proficient in the latest nonsensical jargon :D

In fact, the use of the word gatekeeper in this form is in itself a perfect example of gatekeeping as meant by this use. Which I always find hilariously ironic.

[dictionaries are also a form of gatekeeping]

Can't wait to find out what the new jargon will be next year, I'm sure it'll be as funny as all the previous attempts to re-brand someone's already debunked attempt at self-advancement via cult-formation.

@Arkadia7
@Capt. Huggy Face

Thanks guys, for your kind words, your support. Nice tot read, nice to know. Much appreciated. :]

Since your days as a reviewer, editor, moderator, things have changed. I remember those days well (I have been around since 2007) I specifically remember two nasty occasions vividly, and I can tell you that in the aftermath the general attitude and understanding took a turn for the best. Things had to change if the Watch wanted to keep and attract female players. (And I made a strong case for that change.)
The new TOS in 2016 was one of the results.

I remember once working at an all male office where pin-ups were on the wall. I was new and was introduced to every co-worker. The boss saw those pin-ups and said: ‘Get away with them right now, we don’t want this environment for a woman’. Being a young rookie and eager not to get any annoyance from my new colleagues I muttered: ‘I don’t mind!’. And I really did not mind.
But off they went, those posters, and no one ever uttered any negativity about it.
I guess they knew better than young me that the ambience, the appearance, says something about how women are treated there.

As a moderator I am very keen to make sure RPGWatch is a neutral place were women are less likely to have reservations retaining them from participating.
As a woman arriving at an unknown place full of men it will always be a bit scary when taking the first jump, but having sexism, objectification or harassment as clear flags in threads certainly does not help, so when moderating I always try to imagine how a new visitor would assess the situation, without knowing anything about the person making the specific remark.

In short, I think your words mostly apply to the past. Having (again) a female moderator at the power buttons helps as well. :)
Mind you, as a moderator I don’t get any opposition from what you call ‘the management’, on the contrary, I feel nothing but support from @Myrthos and other team members. Yes, there are debates, there are differences in opinion, but not about the importance of how women here are to be treated and what (not) to condone in that area. That, I think, seen from my perspective, has changed in any case.

Interesting discussion.

I've seen many gaming communities having problems like this over the years. For some reason, a fair few boys/men have a very aggressive style online that does not correspond with their actual personalities. It's hard to figure out why. I'm guessing psychologists who specialize in that sort of behavior are needed to explain exactly why that keeps happening.

That being said, I do think it's changing. Sure, there are still douche bags online, but it's the same douche bags that were there 10-15 years ago. At least it feels that way to me. Either that, or I've simply become so used to ignoring their nonsense that I don't register it any more. That would actually be a bit worrying, if true..

Yes, there's been lots to reply to in this thread already, it's difficult to know where to start, but I shall start by agreeing with both you and eye, in that I haven't really noticed much change in the nature of the site over the last 2 years at the very least and if anything it seems generally calmer than it used to be to-boot.

Someone else has said something along the lines of "another long-time poster going, sad face", but, again, I can't say I've noticed any major changes in poster names over the last 2 years and if it's older than 2 years then it's hardly a situation which deserves a suggestion that it's some recent and on-going thing.

If people are dropping off without much notice then they likely never posted much anyway in the year or two leading up to their withdrawal, which puts the timing of any actual incidents way back beyond even 2 years.

As regards RPGWatch, it's always struck me as a very female friendly environment that, if anything, has a disproportional amount of women in positions of power rather than the opposite :D . I can name loads of female team members, both past and present, who can dominate practically any thread they want should they get the urge and I can't say I've ever seen a backlash against that based solely on their status as a woman. Maybe in the P&R section? But even that's quietened down a lot ever since HHR and Ripper have left.

As to the OP, I think CRPGnut was kind-of just having a laugh anyway, I don't think his post was even meant to be serious, I think he just fancied a bit of pot-stirring entertainment because that floats his boat. So I find it quite amusing how many people have even taken the thread quite so seriously. Or perhaps they haven't and they too are just digging for lols? Lol. I mean, the last person to do a leave thread was fluent I think? And that certainly didn't result in a secondary thread about the site being unfriendly to men :D

Given that for the most part I don’t know who is a female and who not, I don’t know if we are scaring off female members. Could also be we are scaring off many more male members, even percentage wise. Perhaps we are just scaring off people in general.

It is easy to draw conclusions based on assumptions and on own experiences of which the statistical relevance is debatable. Given that the sample size is probably close to N=1, which makes it an opinion and not some universal truth.
As with any opinion, others don’t have to share it and as long as that exchange is not out of bounds, it isn’t moderated.
That said, I don’t think any moderator has the time to check out all the posts that are made, so we probably miss some exchanges. But, we do have a report option with every post, so if you feel that you or someone else is being unfairly treated, hit that report option and a moderator will check it out and decide if an action is needed.

I want to report that crpgnut is nuts for thinking we're scaring off females. It is obvious that his shell has cracked and his seed is spilling out. He's so confused he thought Zloth was a girl! If he can't tell the sex of a sloth, perhaps he is also confused with human-kind as well.

To me this environment seems a little less toxic than, say, the Codex. But communicating through text posts isn't always the friendliest of methods in general. One has to go a little overboard sometimes not to come across as hostile.

Not worth it. The boss showed he was clueless and would never do anything, why am I bothering. It never worked before, never will.

Through colored glasses everything looks different.

I think it is a matter of Mike/Purple taking things too personally, which is understandable as it happens to everyone now and then. SirJames made a pretty reasonably argument and was speaking his own opinion, not making a blanket statement that RTwP is flawed and everyone must think that - although I personally didn't agree with it. Some times it is best to take a break and clear your head and I hope Purple comes back to keep us informed about the latest developments with Pathfinder:WotR :)

I 100% agree with Purple that Pathfinder Kingmaker and WotR should be RTwP as it is a spiritual successor to BG2 which was also RTwP. BG2 was also heavily inspired by Darklands which is one of the godfathers of the modern cRPG - and it is also RTwP. It would be freaking boring if every game was turn based. The key strength of RTwP is it allows epic battles to be realized in a very visceral way that you can't get with a turn based game. Nothing beats the feeling of having a squad of characters wailing on a dragon all in real time. Turn based just doesn't have the same urgency as RTwP. I like and want more of both systems - neither is flawed and both are great for different reasons.

I am as old school as cRPG gamers get. I grew up playing Demon's Winter and Temple of apshai and every other cRPG under the sun. I have literally played and completed almost every western cRPG ever released (even the obscure ones you Europeans love like Ambermoon and Ishtar), the only ones I haven't played are a bunch of Russian ones that have never been translated. I love RTwP and I have backed every Infinity engine inspired game with plenty of cash and I will continue to do so.

A little? Compared to the Codex this place is full of only Hipsters, Hippies and Hugs. Compared to the Codex most forums are though.

Source: https://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_…efinitely-end/
https://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/…/723829_v2.jpg

Being a hipster is not supposed to be negative - without hipsters there is no pushing forward. The problem are trenchasing hipsters that change skin several times per day based on the current flow.
Nothing wrong with hippies either, enjoying life while not hurting anyone can't be bad except when a tyrant wants hippies to wage wars for his personal psychopatic interests.
What's hugs? If that's a person that loves and hugs everyone when drunk, well, that's me. :)

Oh yes, when I suggested that the attacks on Purple stop, that people accept that not everyone likes the same things (remember that SEVERAL people were out saying that people were objectively wrong and not likely REAL RPG fans for liking RTqP), that the whole 'game system' thing get moved into its own thread … yes, of course in fact *I* was the problem.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmV9Y7TU…g&name=900x900

About that… I didn't follow the thread in question much and wasn't involved in gameplay style "wars" so count me not informed enough in the specific matter.
But once again I have to repeat that combat is something of not much importance to me. Everything works in my case. Sometimes though it's made so bad I can't adapt to it (example: Earthlock controls), but one fail doesn't mean other games with the same combat style suck.

To return on topic, unless one of females who left the site doesn't return and state "I was scared off and felt it was because I'm female", I find it hard to believe being scared of anything here is gender based.

First off, PLEASE stop trying to find the 'one thing'. Because while we can talk about a few posts on a single thread, my point is that the misogyny here is systemic and comes straight from the top on down - with a very few people trying to actually do anything about it and typically getting berated and attacked for doing so.

I have never issued a 'I'm leaving' statement, but have taken multiple 'breaks' - and EVERY SINGLE ONE has been related to having 'had enough' of the sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia and assorted bigotry of a large amount of the predominantly male members … including some of the most prolific posters.

The only reason I come back is that in spite of everything, there is simply no better place to discuss the assortment of RPG (and FPS) games I love.

Of course *you* wouldn't, not a surprise. I have had people reach out to me personally in the past, mostly people who were short term members who decided it just wasn't worth it. The fact that they do not return to their abusers … well, yeah.