NWN2 - 1 Up 'Review' Pulled & Recanted @ 1 Up
 

1 Up posted a review yesterday scoring NWN 2 a paltry 5/10. After an internal meeting with magazine and online review editors, it was decided to pull the review and recant the score:<blockquote> We have made a mistake.
The 1UP Network review of Neverwinter Nights 2, authored by Matt Peckham, has been officially retracted from 1UP.com and will not appear in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine.
Upon further review of the author's text, listening to the feedback from our community and others, and after internal discussion between the 1UP and GFW editors, we have determined that the text of the review did not live up to our editorial standards. We respect the opinions of Mr. Peckham and all of our writers, but we felt that this particular review of Neverwinter Nights 2 did a disservice to fans of the RPG genre.
We have commissioned a new review by a different author to be published next week on 1UP.com, and in the January issue of Games For Windows.
We truly regret our error, and apologize to you, our readers.

Andrew Pfister
Reviews Editor, 1UP.com</blockquote>
More information.

I wonder what other good RPGs Mr Matt Peckham has trashed.

I guess someone forgot to tell the original reviewer who pays the bills!! Long live Freedom of the Press!! We can't have censorship, can we!!

Not having read the review, I can't comment on it; it's the principle involved that bothers me. I might disagree with what you say, but as someone else once said, I'll defend to the death your right to say it!!

Evidently he is fresh from having trashed HoMM5, which, whatever its problems, hardly deserved the low score he gave it. It may be, as he laments, that we live in an age of grade inflation, but he alone is hardly going to hold the line.

And the fact that he posted his review of HoMM5 without even knowing that one could scroll the map in the tactical battle phase is more than a glaring error - I just don't see how one could miss something that obvious ….

free speech is one thing.. but passing off emotional outbursts as "game reviews" is another

at best, its a meaningless rant… and theres plenty of space in the B L O G O S P H E R E for that bullshit

Here's the review as originally written. It was (luckily) posted on the official forums:

Edited by Dhruin pending an internal discussion of the copyright of the article.

Yeah, I can see that this is a bad review… he didn't review the game subjectivly but he just pulled it down because he doesn't like D&D rules.

This is like giving a shooter a bad score…. because you don't like shooting in real-time you want something new… a turn-based shooter instead! IMHO, and his review doesn't really say much about the game! Really horrible review.

Don't know about the score since I didn't try this game yet…


Well, I think someone is looking for a new job :D

dude is a bonehead.. this game has one of the most complex worlds ever in terms of how NPCs react to you and how events unfold according to what actions you take.. although it is clearly modular design based, tiled system, decorative buildings (that you cant enter) and so on and so forth… but the game is just a showcase for the mod tools - thats the REAL point

what a dumbass.. go back to subway dude

He reminds me of the old Scorpia reviews of the 80's. She seemed so jaded that she found fault in just about every facet of games by the end. Though in defense of Scorpia, she built her reputation up for a long time before she started to lose it. This guy is a no name.

Read this thread to see why it was pulled.

Well, 1Up is apparently trying to break the shackles of the '7-9 scale', as witnessed first by their 4/10 Dark Messiah review and now this. In the 7-9 scale, 7.5 is average … but in the 1-10, 5 is average.

I don't care about the scoring, and think that if they just said 'meh' and re-scored it as a 7.5 or so then we'd never have heard.

I pulled up a chair and read that thread and the official retraction; it was great entertainment. But I wonder if the mistake instilled the slightest real shred of humility in anyone involved.

The amazing thing at Qt3 is the amount of high profile writers, developers and editors who are there … there were at least a dozen in that thread alone.

It's funny how much I feel like defending NWN2 and I haven't even played it! I guess I just want a newly released rpg to be a fun experience so badly that I don't want to see a review that's less than 9. I think it's just the frustration of playing so many games with promise but that failed to deliver. What I really want is dialogue and I want choice. I don't want to be an inactive participant in the story (e.g. Final Fantasy -- which, while it has its good points, the ones I've played have no real dialogue choices) and I don't want another hackfest (Titan's Quest). Sigh….which brings me to my conclusion -- I hope Fallout 3 is deeper than Oblivion :P

Why did they even bother to put that in first place? Glittering showcase of internet gaming journalism at best.

This also shows a flaw in sites like gamerankings and gametab (a personal favorite), which average site scores on the 1-10 scale. Blindly pulling scores from individual scales and assuming they mean the same thing in each place is a very broken way to create an average. On GameTab right now, NWN2 has a 75% based on 3 reviews, one of which is the pulled 1up review. GameTab even lists the retractions in their news, but hasn't retracted it from their own scoring system. I would think you'd need to do something similar to rottentomatoes.com where they distill each review down to a positive or negative and then put it on a scale before you have a credible consensus among game sites.

As for people trashing a game for not being an entirely different type of game, I think this happens way too often in even more subtle forms. I've seen this happen with RPGs a lot whenever something new is tried. Many devolutions into "What is a real RPG" could easily fall into a debate on personal preference.

Well I guess I owe everyone an appoligy since I actually kinda of agree with him, not on everything as I couldn't give a score since I have only completed the first Town/Tutorial.
I didn't read the whole thread of the link posted here, just the first post, don't have time atm.
This is just a gereral obersvation at this point since I don't have time to get all the info.

The reviewer specificly mentions as an example the interaction of NPCs and how they seem to just stand around waiting for you to come up so they can be your signpost, ala Morrowind, he even seems to knock/blame Oblivion.
Just a couple days ago I posted on this site in a NWN2 thread how I was disappointed after just playing G3 caring about the story and the NPCs, to NWN 2 which I didn't.
I clearly see him attacking the mundane attiude of most RPG Devs, about inane NPCs, though sadly while I see it and feel it others don't seem to. :(

So often we sit here talking about how great PB's AI is compared to things like Elder Scrolls and honestly most other RPGs, yet when someone bases a review on the foundations we all constantly speak of high praise, everyone turns on the reviewer as he attempts to standup for what we/he beiieves?

Afaik, the 5/10 is proabaly too low, was he trying to take a stand, to stand out for Imersive RPGs by trashing strict by the rules and paint by numbers RPGs, at this point I think so.
As txa1265 mentions, if he would have given it a 7.5 everyone proabably would have blown it off.

As for HoMM5 I really can't comment cause I haven't played it since I am not a big stratigy fan, I can tell you after playing G3 for many hours and have tried to offer info about the game as much as I need help with it I miss things all the time. ;)
After all these hours I still didn't know how to find actual Documents, Recipes and Letters till I was told in the Spoiler section.
There are very small (maybe due to my resolution?) Icons at the Top of the Documents menu which link to each catagory and I know for a fact many people if not everyone can play an extensivly complex game and miss things that seem second nature to someone else.
It goes both ways because games are complex at least RPGs in genreal tend to be, which is one of the reasons they are in the minority of games sales.
Since people have different playing styles noone really views plays these games the same way.

In the short I think he was saying, he doesn't like it when a Dev gives you a paint by numbers and linear game, then adds in a bunch of stats/rules and calls it a great RPG, NWN 2 maybe great but I sure didn't personally feel it at the start as I did with other great RPGs like Gothic and Bloodines.

Carry on. :)

Well it does hurt a site to pull a review. Reading the text off the review it shouldn't been posted at all. I am not sure if i will agree with the sentiment of the post or if I will change my view of the game. But i am all for using the spectra of the points when reviewing. 5/10 its in my point of view a normal game, but the standards at it is now, its far more in the 7 or 8.

If he could have pulled a better text to the number i would have been glad. Reading the text seeing the score even 5/10 was to high.

As of NPCs just standing there doing nothing. I HATE a game where i have to hunt for a NPC just to "do" the mission. (Oblivion and my first mission in the bookstore comes to mind). I like signpost NPCs. I think all games should get higher grades if they just NPCs as sign post.

yeah,
I like NPCS signposts! :-)

I have to say I agree with the decision of pulling the review. A meaningful review has to (1) figure out what goals the thing being reviewed is trying to accomplish, (2) evaluate how well the thing accomplishes these goals, and (3) comment on whether the goals were worth trying to accomplish in the first place. The first two are at least somewhat "objective" criteria, and the third is heavily based on the reviewer's personal preferences; often the most interesting part of the review, but also the one to be taken with the biggest grain of salt.

This reviewer only does (3). That doesn't constitute a review; it constitutes a rant. Moreover, he doesn't even appear to do justice to the game within the context of that opinion. If I was the chief editor, I would've had this published as an opinion piece, but not a review.

What are we coming to! - - "Authors and Reviewers for hire" - - choose your own style and flavour! - In recent times i read reviews with even more caution.

There should be an official body of certified reviewers, a review board, a round table of wise just men, an almost impossible reality.

well, all the "reviewer" done in this "review is bragging how much he hate d&d. and for that sole reason he gave the game a 5. so why he reviewed the game in the first place if he hate d&d? it's not like obsidian hide the fact it's a d&d game.

btw, the game ROCKS! it's sooooo fun! and it's very well written, i wish there were more games like it.

Give it some time man - dont you think its a bit naive to judge a game based on the tutorial?? Come on there. I wouldnt be surprised if the reviewer guy didnt even make it to Neverwinter city before posting his review.

This is definately one of those kinds of games that ramps up in terms of all the good stuff.. its actually pretty linear and simplistic until you get to NW city. Its possible the devs wanted to get people used to the game and so on… but it is about 8 hours or so at least of this kind of "low-impact" gaming. After that it starts to get alot more interesting and many more lenghty side quests start popping up. Also, the amount of choices you have and subsequent events becomes alot more dependent on what you do as well.. it has alot of branching paths.

Stay with it dude - its definately worth it.

HI :)

It seems to me that the reviewer of NWN2 at 1up's site was out to get the whole
D&D genre. The original, now retracted, review, seems to me to be just a rant about how he doesn't like stats & rulebased D&D games, not a review of the game.

A review has to be the reviewer's personal opinion about the game's interface, story, gameplay etc. and not a rant abot the dislike of an entire genre.

If I had to decide, I would have left the review there and add some "we don't agree with it" type of statement. That way they would avoid "protect freedom of press" type of exclamations.

I think that there has to be a difference between freedom of the press and gross incompetence; to my mind (after 40+ hour in the game now) the review was the latter and should never have been printed in the first place. The editor should have caught this before it ever went to publication, period.

That is so lame. they should have kept that review. I mean it is stupid to put up a review and recant it. If that's he case the need to go back and re-review ALL gmaes that they have done.

space captain your proabably right and I did mention I would give more of a try
I thnk a great RPG is unmistakable, now not being finished or buggy is certianly a problem but if its great you can feel it in its core, whether its Tutorial or mid game.
Examples of this are Gothic, Bloodlines and System Shock 2 there are more but you get the picture. ;)

You guys are proabably right about this review not being of a quality for a published and never should have been considered, but honestly I feel let down by the game.
The reason I was willing to buy it without waiting for reviews is the Coop and the other reason is the same I bought Oblivion the Editor because those are worth supporting. :)

I hope the game gets better but honestly with games like Gothic around this is only good not great.

The camera will not lock, at least for me even after using settings offered in the NWN2 forum, the crappy camera AI either spins the long way around or just half turns.
Maybe its just a bug but it is extrememly annoying to constantly babysit this crap, it certinaly takes a certian amount of fun potintal out of the game.

Look I want to like it, I reallly do. :)

It was a big editorial screw up - but frankly if it wasn't NWN it would never have been caught. Matt Peckham is better than that, and so is Jeff Green (the editor) - they screwed up and got nailed for it.

Clearly you have a personal leaning towards single-character action/RPGs (based on your "great RPGs" examples), which is obviously a perfectly reasonable preference. Gothic is one of my favourite all time games but while it is very good at doing certain things (and you mention non sign-post NPCs in your previous post) it really doesn't do a good job at other things, such as deeper dialogue and more complex character development. NWN2 and Gothic set out to do different things and while I'd prefer NPCs not to stand around, I can't see that makes it a poorer RPG, especially if it makes up for it in other ways such as character-skill-driven dialogue choices.

Horses for courses but not only was that review poorly written, not only was it contradictory, not only did it hedge it's opinion with a disclaimer at the end, it assumed all roleplaying games should really be Microsoft Fantasy Simulator 2006. A lot of people would like that approach but plenty of people like a different emphasis.

I think this also demonstrates the foolishness of arguing about scoring systems out of context. Does 5/10 mean a perfectly competent but average game to the vast majority of readers? No. It means a piece of crap they would touch with a 50 foot barge pole. It simply doesn't communicate the actual intent.

Don't like it eh? Thats it!!! I'm going to have to block the site for you again!

I can't disagree with this reviewer's sentiment and the syntax was kind of fun.

However, he didn't review the actual game and its pretty obvious he didn't get past the tutorial.

I could defend his choice of score even, however he also says it would be an 8 or 9 if he had been a D&D fan.

I might not even criticise that, however with the toolset its well known how much can be changed if you are not into that with just a bit of time and effort.

But pulling the review without it standing on its own (lack of) merits is asking for trouble as already mentioned. Its a good way to make yourselves look like your in the company's pocket and your reviews are biased to your advertisers.

An editor would be smarter to just distance himself from the review as official to the 'zine and send someone else to review it.

If my employee rates a greatly anticipated Chinese restaurant's grand opening very low because he's sick and tired of noodles, rice, steamed vegetables, and soy sauce, I'm going to pull the review.

Very poor game reviewing there imho

"towards single-character action/RPGs (based on your "great RPGs" examples)"

While true in once sense, I could have easily named great Action/RPGs for days past such as BG 1, BG 2, PS and IWD of a top down variety.
Even though these bring back fond memories of yesterday, I do accept evolving RPGs as great as well.
While SS2 didn't really have anyone left alive to actually help develop a character, which also left little room for the diplomacy skill set, its a Fusion of old and new to me.
It’s much the same story with G1 and G2 as you couldn't effect the story or use Diplomacy skill set.
Now Bloodlines is quite different you could effect the story and use Diplomacy skill set maybe not as much as old school but once again we are dealing with evolution based on fusion.

There are obvious problems with old school games which are very clear, while the minority disagree the on principal, the majority of game buyers do agree.
First of all being forced to read book length, long drawn-out dialogues pull you out of the game experience, maybe not the story but certainly the game.
Most non hardcore will feel if they want to read they will go and read a book, if they want to play a game they want a more responsive experience than reading for 15 minutes only to play for 2 min, loot for 1 min, travel for 10 - 20 min, read for 15min start over again.
It’s the same reason you when you go to a movie you don't see acting for 5 minutes, read for 15 min and back to acting for 5 min.

Next you often are forced to micro manage everything, is this always bad, of course not, what is bad?
Its the fact that you can't choose to avoid it, old school forces everything, all at once down everyone’s throat whether they want it or not.
They are designed specifically for a very small minority of people willing to go to an all you can eat banquet of ideas and being forced to abide by everyone of them.
Most gamers want to be able to choose functions that fit their play style or limited playtime verses RL, some playing for fun might not have the time or be looking for an overwhelming experience of micromanagement.

In relation to Role-playing I do personally run into a problem with large parties in the sense I try to empathize with the characters on the screen I play/roll, so its much easier for me to focus one player to get a fuller experience, if I am playing and empathizing from the point of view of 6, I start feeling schizophrenic. ;)

Also if the reference to Action/RPG was the games I named are more action oriented, it maybe true, its also true that Rare are RPGs where no fighting is necessary, so its perceptually based as to how much action verses diplomacy constitutes an RPG. :)
I.e the ones I named are RPGs by most definations unlike say Oblivion which is an Action game with some stats.

Good point Lucky Day, the Editor should have said when confronted, "We were trying to get a non D&D opinion, and our main stream D&D review didn't make in time for this months publictaion." or something along those lines.
He could have covered his and the Mag's butt, while distancing himself from this guy.

Anyway there is a good chance I would have a more postive experience with NWN2 if the Camera AI, the Companion Control and AI wasn't crap. ;)
As another example I am forced to use Driving Cam to get as close to rearlock perspective as possible and prevent the Camera AI from doing summersaults and double half gainers yet can't get the elevation I want.
Next the Companion AI won't or can't stay put, I have looked through the Key settings and tried Right & Left clicking the Companions and nothing.
I didn't play a Rogue to have my party running over traps and running to the next fight before this one is finsihed and following me while I Stealth to scout out an area only to run in unprepared.

Then having the AI break and not follow, after retreving The Dust of the Grand Wahzoo in Dungeon of Despair from the Swamp of Unholy Terror for my Foster father, I told the Companion I wanted to look around before leaving.
(Who the hell, fights then leaves without looting, why was that dialogue necessary?)
So after I loot I start to leave and he will Not follow, so I am forced to play a Charater I did Not roll, who is a whiny brat (well not really but he could have been). ;)

The point I guess is that while Gothic has been a buggy, frustrating and technically messy its still Gothic and you can feel it, so I care about and still want to play it.
NWN had no real emotional tie for me, I wasn't hooked on the Main story, (only Coop and Editor those meant something to me), so here we are with NWN 2 and it feels some what hollow at this point.
This isn't my final judgement obviously but it is how I feel about the game atm, so I was able to understand somethings the reviewer was trying to say, though he wasn't able to explain it functionally or do a good job trying. :)

"Don't like it eh? Thats it!!! I'm going to have to block the site for you again!"

ToddMcF2002 next time your wife has me over when your out of town, I gonna mess up you sock drawers and my wife says you still owe here $10 bucks, damn you ! :p

Har. The problem is that no-one will admit a game he doesn't like into his definition of an RPG. Like me*, the author finds that the character sheet bookkeeping impedes the type of play he enjoys, so he defines role-playing in a way that excludes it. (Psh more like RULE-playing LOL.) Here at the 'Watch, we don't like action games, so under no circumstances can we discuss Diablo without a dozen idiots chiming in with "that's not an RPG!" If everyone understood that the term means different things to different people, and no-one has the correct definition, then people like Matt would allow that the D20 ruleset equals roleplaying for millions of gamers, and he might spare us his painfully overwritten screeds.

*Until yesterday. I never made it out of BG2's starter dungeon, and played an arcane spellcaster in NWN for the first time the other day. And… do you remember the first time you cast a maximized Ice Storm? How loudly did you cheer? :)

Sounds like you are arguing about what is popular, rather than necessarily better. Action represents the largest segment in gaming. It's no surprise that an action game with light RPG elements (potentially) crosses over into the larger action market…but that doesn't necessarily make it a better RPG. Right? The Sims is very popular - doesn't mean every game should be the Sims. Britney Spears is popular - thank god all music isn't only like that.

On micromanagement, you said:

Let me quote from Matt's review, that you said you agree with:

So, you can can avoid some of the micromanagement but then the reviewer complains "but then, what's the point?" Contradictory, much?

I'm a lone voice in the Watch Wilderness: I LIKE action-RPGs…..better in most cases than the elitist snobs that I work for. Just kidding, guys… O_O

But that's a point well-taken and one that a lot of people miss. The particular definition that a reviewer brings to a game will determine how well they like it. I would, for instance, be a poor judge of any in the Gothic series since the first one left me cold all the way 'round. It's a matter of perspective.

"Sounds like you are arguing about what is popular, rather than necessarily better "
Not really my point was mostly the way I believe development has turned and why.
While SS2 was popular to a certian extent it wasn't a blockbuster, it was a critical success though, don't think there is any question about that.
I mostly was refering to the problems with old school that prevent it from being sucessful enough for Devs to continue making them based on the things I listed.


"but that doesn't necessarily make it a better RPG. Right?"
Yes you are correct afaik. :)
The hard part as others have mentioned is at least getting some form of general consensus much less a concise definition or meaning of what is an RPG, then what will it take to be sucessful enough to make a second game, third and fourth game?

"Let me quote from Matt's review, that you said you agree with:"
I guess what I said could be inturpted as agreeing with him, though I really feel like I said, I understand some of the things he was refering too and I did agree with some things.
There, he seems to be talking about leveling up, which is almost so second nature for any RPG even hybrids and the things I listed as problems don't really relate to basic leveling and stats.
Also my refernce to micromanagment was part of why hardcore/old school RPGs cant make enough to stay in business.
It seems they either have to do it with a very small team as a labor of love or try to make enough changes to sell enough to continue in bussiness.

I really only intended to state what seems like facts (well to me) about the way the industry makes so many hybrid RPGs and why.
I certianly don't like the way things are, it wasn't intend to be a cheer for the industry or my delusion of the way things should be. ;)

"So, you can can avoid some of the micromanagement but then the reviewer complains "but then, what's the point?" Contradictory, much?"
Well not sure if you mean him or me but as I metion I think he was refering to leveling up, a standard at least to me.
I didn't reread but iir, he was refering to companions and there annoyances, so he didn't really care about them enough to bother.

As I mentioned my biggest problem is I can't control [order my companions to stop, stay and stfu (hehe)] my companions which is a huge head ache.

When referenced Gothic, it wouldn't/isn't as big a problem as I cared about Gothic, I feel like part of it [heh, maybe I am deluded ;) ].
Example when I made it to Vanguard, the music started with the haunting beauty of the solo voice, basicly made me well up a tear of joy.

NWN2 could be the greatest game every made, I just don't feel it yet and I don't recall I have critized anyone because they do feel it with NWN2. :)
Also I am not attacking old school or hardcore, I was trying to be realistic maybe I was just doing a crappy job. ;)

"I LIKE action-RPGs"
Me too and I do like RPGs, as you mentioned I guess its most what an indiviualis looking for or enjoys. :)

Because I come from a FPS background (or whatever Castle Wolfenstein was when I got it for my Apple ][+ in 1981 or so ..) I like action-RPG as well. I tend to like many genres - RTS is one of few that I just don't click well with.

RTS….*shivers* The ultimate ick. ;)

Well, I prefer TB games. At my age, my reflexes are not up to the rigors of twitch combat!! Action RPG's, putting the TWITs back into TWITch combat!! :biggrin: Sorry Kalia!!