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Is it just me?
Is it just me or does RPG news for the last few years seem underwhelming to the rest of you? I come here almost every day to get the news like I have since the days of RpgDot but hardly anything interests me anymore. I feel like there are too many Indie games with dated visuals and uninteresting mechanics while the AAA games look prettier and prettier as they become increasingly less sophisticated and uninteresting. Maybe it's just a mid life crisis and it'll pass…
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Nope not just you as I agree somewhat.:)
1. I agree there are far to many uninteresting indie games. 2. Also AAA games especially RPGs are too mainstream. I had high hopes for crowd-funded games but that seems to have fizzled out in the last few years. Still that doesn't mean a few gems are not released every year. Nowadays I mostly play older games I never finished or replay games I already finished. |
I think it's a combination of the things already mentioned and the fact that our habits and tastes change as we get older.
Even if there were a larger amount of games I'd be interested in, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be spending more time gaming or reading about gaming than I already am. I used to bemoan not having more time for gaming and gaming related activities, and now I find that I actually game less despite having more time. |
Not just you and it's not new.
Indie scene has a serious problem with visuals for years now. Of course there are deliberate horrible graphics presentations to repeat the success of rubbish that looks like shit (Rick and Morte, Bo Jack and alike), but in most cases it's not. AAA almost completely shifted to mmos and cares not about player's fun but about milking schemes. But as it happens, every now and then appears an unexpected gem. Thanks to the news here I learned about Troubleshooter. Practically no gaming site mentioned it. No reviews either. It's just an example. Unlike JDR I actually have less time for games then ever thanks to the stupid coronavirus in past few months. For anything in fact, not just for games. Here's hope the virus is gone soon. |
Have there been any recent indie RPGs that you've liked? I get the feeling that with indies, the only viable route is sacrificing visuals and either coming up unique mechanics or doing the mechanics better than old beloved game.
Why do indie games have to sacrifice visuals? Because those fancy 100,000-triangle character meshes with their photo-realistic subsurface-scattering skin shaders and hair physics take up so much time and resources that an indie developer couldn't hope to compete there. That's not to say they have to look like crap. They can look great, with a sub-AAA aesthetic. Octopath Traveler, although developed and published by gigantic megacorp Squeenix, is an example of how good a AA title can look with cute pixel characters and low-poly backgrounds. That kind of quality is definitely within reach of dedicated indies. Have there really been no indie RPGs in recent years with fun enough mechanics to get your attention? |
Definitely isn't true for me. I'm as interested in games like Cyberpunk 2077 and Bloodlines 2 (on the to be released side) and Disco Elysium (on the recently released side) as I have been in any RPGs. Plenty more I could mention. Meanwhile, while I pass on plenty of Indie RPGs, there are games like Underrail that I like, and in development Indies like Encased and Gamedec that interest me.
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I do admit that I have a fairly narrow scope of preference - I love a fantasy Tolkien-esque settings and become less interested in the post-apocalyptic settings and even less interested in outer space settings - this is all on me. Still, as a gamer since the late 1970s, I can't remember a 2 year stretch where really nothing on the horizon excited me… even through the early 80s game crash and the mid-late 1990s RPGs slump. Still, the last few Indie games I was excited about fizzled out into offerings that were nothing like how I imagined they would be (Shroud of the Avatar, Underworld Ascendant, and even Bard's Tale IV). Since UA and BT4 nothing in the Indie department has piqued my interest. Also, for the record, this post implies nothing negative about RPGWatch… they are just posting the news that is. It's just that the news has been so underwhelming. These days I've been replaying old games, MM7, Oblivion (heavily modded), Gothic 2 (modded), and even some Dark Souls 2. |
Last game I finished was Operencia. Probably the best crawler since Lands of Lore, released this year on steam / last year on epic.
This years RPG releases have not been that awesome so far in general. But there are good times and there are bad times. Let's see if the second half of the year will catch up, though besides Wasteland 3 and Cyberpunk 2077 I don't have anything with fixed release dates on the radar yet and you cannot call these indie I guess. ^^ |
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When they answer then we should check the opinion from rubbish game journalists like these: https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Sina…developers.php |
I have played a lot of great games this year:
Finished: Vestaria Saga I: War of the Scions Utawarerumono: Mask of Deception Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth Banner of the Maid Langrisser I & II The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel III Forever Home Trials of Mana Nearly finished: TROUBLESHOOTER: Abandoned Children At the beginning: Horizon's Gate Heroines of Swords & Spells Radiant Arc |
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It's not devs' problem someone doesn't like the visual style.
Played only two of those on his list. Not interested much in the rest, but not because of the potential asian style. I just don't think the content will be fun to me. But who knows? Maybe in the future I do try some more. |
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"It's not devs' problem someone doesn't like to play on console/mobile phone." "It's not devs' problem someone doesn't like to grind." "It's not devs' problem someone doesn't like to buy their games on epic." But I guess most of us here are centered around western style games on the PC. |
Definetly not devs' problem I don't want a phonegame or a grinder. I have nothing against Epic though, some do for reasons of their own.
But see, I've tried phonegames and grinders before realizing it's just not fun to me. Most of those if not all… Didn't ditch them instantly without checking what's it about under the hood. |
As for indie graphics, depends on what you call "indie." The term seems all but meaningless these days. It's always been iffy because the relationships between developers and publishers vary a lot. Sometimes the publisher is neck-deep in development, sometimes they put a lot of cash up front then demand the game meet various milestones, sometimes they just publish and that's it. Kingdom Come: Deliverance didn't sign Deep Silver until the game had done a lot of development and I don't think they used them at all for publishing through Steam/GOG - so is it indie?
But, honestly, most folks can't be bothered to look that kind of detail up anyway. They seem to look at the graphics and, if they are low rez, then the game is indie. End of discernment. Obviously, you aren't going to get good graphics under that definition. To the topic - I guess it isn't just you but it sure isn't me. What about Kingdom Come: Deliverance, actually? GREAT visuals and good mechanics, too. No spells, though. |
I do not like indie or primitive type graphics most of the time, so yea, I skip those games. I'll admit I'm a bit of a graphics snob, in that way. That said, I also think that what others may consider to be "primitive" or ugly graphics like in Wasteland 2, well, I disagree with them completely, and think those graphics are beautiful too.
But overall, no, I think rpg gaming is in a good place and am still excited and interested to see what the cutting edge games (like cyberpunk 2077) will do. |
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It's my most anticipated RPG and I hope its not delayed again.:fingerscrossed: |
It's definitely not just you. I've played hundreds of games in the last few years BUT I almost never finish them and often refund them before the 2-hour mark if they're not grabbing me. I've moved to Survival to fill in the lack of decent single-character crpgs that are my staple. For every Dragonborn or Lone Wanderer, there are 60 party-based games so full of combat that I just get sick of it too fast.
Cyberpunk won't work for me, because I have less than zero interest in playing the main character of that game. I'm too mature for punk anything. Tattoos and scars and body piercings are just gross. I'll stick to looking like a human from planet Earth, thanks :) |
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Well, I was very sad when I realised that these days when I have so little time to game, I play games with really bad gameplay and impressive visuals. I guess it is like watching a movie, where you can control perspective and so on almost, but WOW those visuals….
First I played TW3 the gameplay consisted of holding right mouse button and looking for red marks in a square + combat, press w, space and left mouse and f, repeat. OO, and a card game so stupidly easy, I think I lost three times in the entire game. Then final fantasy XV, look for items within a square, combat click left mouse button, f and then , t and potion, repeat. Funny that it is even the same buttons almost, if I had time I would prefer a game with good gameplay for sure. |
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On TW3 for example you seem to focus on that while other people would have talked about the characters, the quests, the world etc.. I don't remember the gameplay, I certainly remember the game though. |
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However that kind of time is perfect to finish some conversation and watch some beautiful landscape and movies unfold, and I guess the AAA game developers cannot lose those players which I realized that I myself has become, at least right now, did it make sense ? :lol: Ironically the game I am making which has removed most of my gaming time focuses on gameplay, so I guess I am making a game that I would not be the audience for right now, but that will change for sure once I get more time! |
@TheMadGamer
It's not just you. I've found the gaming scene to be full of mediocrity in recent times. I don't think it's all to do with getting older either (though it's difficult to have perspective on your own position), as the occasional game comes along that grabs me as well as any ever did. But, with the AAA scene shifting mainly to online games-as-a-service, and the indie segment producing so much that is derivative, much of it leaves me cold. Quite a lot of indie RPGs I find are technically superior to the games that inspired them, but lack the personality and interest of their ancestors. I think a really good game can transcend its graphical limitations and draw you into its world, but I find few do that for me in recent times. On a slight tangent, I think that's a problem that extends beyond games - in the realm of film, there's tremendous technical talent badly served by insipid and artless writing and direction. I also agree with @GothicGothicness that gameplay often seems quite perfunctory - just something to pass the time in a huge and beautiful world, and again almost always completely derivative. That's part of why I started working on my own game. I get more fun now out of trying to realise my own ideas, and, judging from the amount of hobbyists in the gamedev communities, that's a very common situation. What I'm working on at the moment is essentially a fairly generic RPG demo, and there's a couple of reasons for that. It's much easier to find assistance and examples for popular game styles, and I think it makes sense to solve all the problems in a feasible project before trying to implement something more novel. But it seems to me that a lot of commercial projects really aren't that concerned with any kind of fresh gameplay, and are happy to knock out some sort of clone. |
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Just what do you folks actually mean by "gameplay?" Things to do in a game? Systems in a game? |
Games are the same. You guys just changed.
It's like when I hear an old fart moaning "it was better in my time", I always tell him no. Fucking no. Things weren't better at all, HE was better. |
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I think, for example, in all creative industries, there's much more of a focus-grouped committee of suits making creative decisions, whereas in the earlier days it was more about cigar-chomping tycoon who might give a kid a chance if he liked his style - which sometimes let some original talent into the system. |
Video games have been mainsteam since at least the 90's. Maybe longer. It's hard to tell appart the good and bad of that state.
I respect a lot of games from the more experimental, handcrafted periods but so many were also downright unplayable. Today all games are playable, but not a lot are original. But to be objective, just compare games: Zork was great, Firewatch is great too. Alien VS Predator= great. Alien Isolation= great! Tetris is a classic, but Crypt of the Necrodancer is more fun. Ultima 7 was grand, Kenshi is grand… Epic was gigantic, No Man's Skies is bigger (both are boring though)… Et cetera, et cetera… Now, consider someone playing tennis for the first time and someone who has 300 matches under his belt. Their experience will be largely different, and the newbie will certainly find the game very fresh while the vet could be slightly bored… Two very different experience but the game is the same, and never changed. Please, don't take it the wrong way (especially if you don't recognize yourself in what I'm saying), but maybe some should find other interests, for their own sake. I actually know a few "gamers" over 40 who cling desesperatly to their supposed love of video games because that's what they used to love all their life, but don't actually have the passion anymore. They're wasting a lot of their borrowed time doing something that doesn't give them satisfaction, by sheer reflexe, inertia or lack of imagination. I always encourage them to find someting else, as we only live once and video games are just one of the many awesome things we can sink our lives in. |
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I think, if we go with the idea that it's more about "me" than about the games themselves, it's not so much that I consider the old days were better, but that my tastes have kind of zeroed in on the sort of game I really want to play, but somehow it doesn't exist - and there's no choice but to try and make it! :p |
True words Winterfart!
We play hundrets of RPGs over the years and there is a high chance to become jaded over time and loose interest in gaming. Putting the blame on the newer games is not fair. You can't experience the great feeling of discovering a new genre again, because you are a veteran - you know most elements of the genre already. I have played more RPGs than most persons I know - so why do I find them still interesting to play? a) I have other hobbies - not only computer gaming b) I try to be open for new sub-genres with new RPG elements (I play a lot more J-RPGs in recent years for example) so I don't get bored c) I don't play a game to the end, if I don't like it d) I value gameplay much more than gfx, sounds etc. - so I still have fun with RPG Maker games, NWN-mods, Indie games etc. e) I try not to powerplay every game I play and put all my gaming experience in it; at times I like to roleplay weaker parties. So I don't break the game balance with my RPG knowledge. |
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You know: pew pew! Go kill evil! Save the world blablablah, it's teenagers level of interest.. |
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With regard to what @HiddenX was saying, I don't really go along with the idea that over-familiarity with a genre is the problem. I think almost all art is variations on a theme, using a handful of elements. But I think it's always possible to create something fresh that engages even an experienced audience. Looking again at the wider media, I'd mention Cormac McCarthy's novel The Road, and the first season of True Detective - both examples of very well-worn genres, but I would also say brilliant new examples. In the realm of RPGs in particular, I just don't often see something that reflects the best potential of the genre. |
Of course it is possible to create something new in the RPG genre.
But if someone limits himself to only one subgenre (western isometric RPGs with turn-based combat in the Dungeons & Dragons universe for example) chances are great that you a) don't get many new good game releases in a year b) you will get bored over time |
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I don't particularly need fancy graphics. As a cRPG gamer I became quite accustomed to lesser graphics in favor of more complex game play during the 70s, 80s, 90s, and even early 2000s. Art direction, perspective, and theme are all factors. I don't prefer anime but then bizarrely the art direction of World of Warcraft never bothered me. I grew up loving games like Ultima VII with it's 2D isometric perspective but these days I really don't prefer it nor do I prefer the "sidescrolling" perspective in some cRPGs that seems popular these days. I'm pretty much stuck in the Tolkien-esque theme… I've tried and tried to immerse myself in other themes from post-apocalyptic to space to sci-fi to who-dunnit to western and none of the grab me. Really, the only thing on the horizon of some interest to me right now is Elder Scrolls 6 which is scheduled to release sometime in 2150 a good century and a half after I'm dead. And if it comes out sooner, Bethesda's penchant in ruining their recent offerings indicates a worrisome probability they'll included online only or pay-to-win or some other nonsense. I'm sort of rambling here… I do believe people change, tastes can change but at the same time I've been through too much of my life as a gamer to think I'm done with it… I don't honestly think I'm done… I'm just not finding anything that scratches my itch just right. Been through this before… hopefully this is just a spell. It's been a long spell though… or maybe just seems longer because of the lock down. |
Nothing wrong with a good ramble!
I don’t personally think the Tolkien-like world is played out, and that’s my preferred style, too. I think it’s essentially just a development of Western mythology, and there’s plenty of scope in spicing up an imaginative European history. Tolkien himself developed the idea of Middle Earth because he thought the English mythological tradition was lacking – there’s still room for some more! He always claimed he didn’t write the stories, but found them in an historical book called The Red Book of Westmarch, which was inspired by the real Red Book of Hergest. That’s the sort of depth that really makes it come alive. Maybe my hopes are too high, but I don’t see why a really great continuation of that tradition couldn’t arise in the gaming realm. I just find that a lot of RPGs are content with being generic derivatives. |
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Usually combat is the most complex. But it might be puzzles, mini-games within the game, character development, sneaking and so on. TW3 and FF XV and so on is typically brain-dead games which has no innovative gameplay, ok not fully fair to FF XV point warps is quite unique and some optional content require a lot more, but anyhow, you don't need to think or have any skill, anyone can just click and watch basically to complete the game. Dark Souls, Ogre Tactics or Wizardry for example would be games where you need a lot of skill and thinking to complete the game, with complex game-play system and character development, you can't just click your way thought. You have to think in the quests and puzzles ( ok Ogre Tactics is only combat :). Also the way most human work ,is that if it requires skill to complete something, the satisfaction will be greater once you complete something ( winning dark souls boss fights for example :D ). That is solved in many AAA games by rewarding you with beautiful videos or such instead, for doing nothing :) More clear? |
Sorry but… wtf?!
Bach was not Madonna. Okay, another example, Abba was not Justin Bieber. There is a reason TW3 is what it was just as there is a reason FF15 tells a tragedy without tragedy. If you searched for yet another QTE2.0 game and expected it inside TW3 and FF15, you'll get disappointed. But if you want to see hairworks on your PC, then you'll dance happily seeing it in both TW3 and FF15 - but never in QTE2.0 games. There is a good reason QTE2.0 games spawn clones over clones, endlessly, one worse than another. Noone however managed to clone TW3 nor FF15. Because neither TW3 nor FF15 were selling perhaps? Of course not. As with every art expression, you don't have to like the genre. Wanna make no story gameplay oriented only game? Why not. Name it Skyrim 2. :p |
Just a disclaimer: There are still a lot of quality RPG developers out there imo producing things like Encased, Underrail, Kingdom Come: Deliverance - too many to list. Some devs are just a game away from really coming into themselves and delivering something good. Spiders has been on that list for awhile. There are also a lot of lets say 'swipe left' developers.
In terms of the problem RPGs themselves, my impression is that game developers feel the need to check every expectation box. There is also a widespread genericism in terms of presentation and how things feel to play. Perhaps this is the problem of bespoke engines like Unity and Unreal delivering ubiquity - easy to clone something but harder to do something original. In other words unless a developer really knows the engine well you will get a lot of rinse and repeat. I don't think there is the problem of risk taking in terms of trying something mechanically new. The problem is implementation of the ideas they do have being unsatisfying and not fun. They clone 'x' mechanic without appreciating why it worked in the first place. Or if they do try something new they don't fully commit to it in terms of presentation leaving it a confusing/unsatisfying mess. They put in graphics that are a mishmash of style and theme. The music is generic to the point of being painful or wishing it wasn't there. There is a certain blandness to a lot of these experiences where it feels like the developers simply didn't take the time to make every little element shine. It could also be that they have a rather poor and unsophisticated taste. I think some of the younger developers simply lack the appreciation of things outside of gaming that my generation would take for granted. I grew up when gaming on computer was new and all the really passionate people went into game development. Their experiences were forged by books, movies, and music that was formed from a classical basis. These days developers simply want to clone the game they enjoyed in their youth. This translates to poor RPG unfortunately. |
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What might be a factor is that, if you're a new developer, it's much easier to get guidance on how to do the things that people have done dozens of times before. |
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