Eschalon: Book II - Q & A Thread
 

Basilisk Games has started a Q & A thread over on their forums for players' questions on their rpg in development, Eschalon:Book II. The plan is to select one question per week and feature the answer here. Here's an excerpt from the first exchange:
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Oh, for… Look, this is stupid, okay? Capital "S" Stupid. Hunger timers add nothing to the game- some realism, yes, but realism is dramatically overrated. Whenever the meter starts getting low, the player has to either die or stop having fun so he can get fed. It also leaves open the possibility that the player will be able to save the game in a state that is functionally unwinnable and have to start over from the beginning. The only way to keep it from disrupting the gameplay is to make it irrelevant to the game- which means that you've just spent a lot of effort coding a meaningless bullet point. Not only that, but it's a bullet point that your target audience will look at and say "EWWWWW, Hunger meter! I'm NOT buying this…"

Seriously, people, didn't we learn our lesson in the 80's? I challenge anyone on this board to point out one significant way in which a hunger timer would improve the game.

While not taking on your challenge, i would say: "Wow, finally a game which requires you to drink and eat again."
I loved that in dungeonmaster and many other old games, so there you have it.
There should definately be multiple ways to obtain eat-/drinkable items, for example eatable parts from monsters or mushrooms/nature stuff. I love this micromanagement.
(I never got it, why suddenly the games mags declared micromanagement unfunny. Its the same with turn based combat or even "base building" in modern RTS games, which suddenly seem to be totally ruining the fun we had with it the last 10 years.)

I love the idea of the hunger and thirst meter. I like having to plan a dungeon crawl, or a foray into the desert or whatever. It's all about strategy, which I think should involve more than just how to defeat the next monster. (To be fair though, I have not played Eschalon at all yet). Of course, if there are going to be hunger and thirst, the ability to satisfy them needs to be accessible (though not always easy), IE hunting, getting water from ponds, etc.

You say that didn't we learn our lessons from the 80's? What lessons, some of the best games every made PERIOD include food as concern (Ultima's 4-7 come to mind).

Well said. I have always liked the idea of the hunger and thirst meters.

Let me ask you this, do you like it just as much when you do all that planning and forethought and strategising, and micromanaging, and packing, and organizing… and then starve to death on the last level of the dungeon anyway because you just packed one loaf too few back at that start? Keep in mind that, since you made that mistake at the beginning of the dungeon, there's a good chance you now have to redo two hours of the game that you've solved before. Still think it's a good idea?

It's a bit like the Dahaka races in Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. It's incredibly fun and unique if you manage to win on the first or second try, but if you have to try a fourth time you start wanting to murder the designer with a rusty stiletto.

Ultima 4 was a great game, and did include the hunger mechanic, but said mechanic was one of the things that brought the game down. In fact, the dungeons were intolerable because the damn Gremlins kept stealing all your food and left you starving slowly to death. They were so numerous that you had no chance of bringing enough food to make it past the third floor, and running was out of the question because it killed your Valor. Everyone I know who beat Ultima 4 just looked up the dungeon maps and used the passage in Lord British's castle and to zip right to the stones via the altar rooms.

Hi, I'm Atrachasis. Nice to meet you. *shake hands*

Now you may retract that last statement. My party picked most of the gremlins off with ranged weapons before they even got close, and some of the worst rooms could be circumvented.

In all honesty, I do prefer the way food was implemented in the later Ultimas: IIRC, you didn't lose hit points if you ran out of food, but you couldn't regenerate them if you slept on an empty stomach. I'm not crazy about hunger/thirst meters as such. However, including it in some way or other is a good thing, IMHO, because it adds a new and distinct strategic element: attrition. It's a different type of problem than beating monsters or figuring out puzzles, but for me, if done right, it is a welcome addition to the blend of challenges that a good RPG presents.

You hit precisely on the point I made about it being accessible to manage the hunger. In Ultima, if I got to the 7th level of a dungeon and were out of food, I had a choice to make: See if I could finish the dungeon while starving or use the create food spell to feed my party at the expense of having less magic to use against whatever else lay in wait. I LOVED that. THAT is real choice in games.

As to your last point, I've beaten Ultima 4 several times and never used the cheat you mention.

Personally, I hate hunger meters. For me, they add nothing but frustration. The worst part of U7 was all the 'I'm Starving' messages I was constantly getting in the early stages of the game. Make it an option if you like, for the masochistic, but realism per se is not absolutely necessary. If you include food, then perhaps we need toilets to complete the cycle!!!! I hope not. :)

Uo7 was simply too extreme with food - you had too many party members which needed to be fed manually too often using a mousedriven interface to open up backpacks and doubleclick small bits of food.

I love the way Corwin always perfectly hits the spot!!

I second the motion to whoever hates hunger and water meters.
They blow.
I hated all games that included that system.

Come on. I played D&D for over two decades and never bothered my players to bring the exact amount of food for a quest or for whatever.

I mean. Come on!!

Or else, like mister Corwin said so well :

"Give me a back house!!" :poo::poo::greengrin::clap::please:

PS : Even though I enjoyed Arx Fatalis, I hated the : I'm hungry! crap. Oops.
Pun! heheh.

It's nice to be appreciated!! :)

Well according to the realism principle (which is actually only mandatory for simulation games and sports games, NOT RPGS), maybe they should include the requirement for haircuts, clothes cleaning, bathing, washing, and relieving the player character in the washroom…. or does the (digestable ?) food & water we have to consume in the game just magically disappear ?

If you open the door to demanding mundane realism in RPGs, then the door is no longer shut.

You know hyperboles can also go into the opposite direction:
So while we are at it, why not drop the roleplaying stats (realism??), the different weapons (you´ll only need one, come on!), day and night cycle (who would want that?) all together with the food/thirst meter.
Oh wait, dumbing down games is not so funny now, right?

It's not about "dumbing down" games or not - it's about keeping the fun parts and getting rid of the not-so-fun parts. Different people have different opinions on where this split goes. Personally I don't like having to pack food/drink in RPGs very much but I like day and night cycles for example - even (or especially) if it means shops and NPCs are not available at all times.

I enjoyed Eschalon bool I very much, and the first thing I noticed on the new screen shots was the food and drink meter - and to be honest, for me they represent a step backwards for the series.

That may be so, but according to the poll on the eschalon forums more people want them, so for them its a step in the right direction. I would even say that backward IS the right direction, because eschalon is all about old-school-rpgs.

I agree. I remember the same thing in U6, it took me a while to figure out that I needed to double click the food to make them eat! I like having to supply the food, but spoon feeding is a bit over the top! IIRC, that was something they fixed in Exult for U7.

Seriously dude, you need to tone back your opinions. If you disagree fine, but there's no need to be an ass and tell someone their opinion isn't valid.

Liking of thirst and hunger meters is obviously a matter of taste. No point to argue abt it.

RPG = GAME. The game must be FUN. The menial, repetitive, mundane tasks (such as cooking a meal, or doing laundry) of our current 2008 existence on this planet called Earth are overwhelming rejected in RPGs. And generally, RPGs are set in Fantasy realms which overwhelmingly REJECT the verified scientific reality of our contemporary (2008) existence. The current laws of science (of which, food & eating requirements refer to anatomy, medicine and biology in our scientific-based 2008 existence) are generally tossed out the window and replaced by abilities and activities which DEFY and REJECT our contemporary scientific laws.

Like I said, if one is going to institute eating and drinking requirements in RPGs, then cooking, serving and consuming meals is along with subsequent bathroom requirements is ALSO within the bounds of the same realistic standard which ultimately demands the inclusion of menial, repetitive, mundane contemporary tasks, "because they are realistic".


I wasn't referring to sky, night, dawn, weapons and character stats, as those are certainly things which ADD to the fun of the unrealistic and overwhelmingly FANTASY-Based RPGs. Btw, character stats are not found in our contemporary 2008 AD earth existence, so they are an unrealistic game-based invention/system, included solely for the purpose of enhancing Roleplaying fantasy via intricate character design (designing your own character, or setting an explicit numerical ranking for a given characteristic is INHERENTLY ENTIRELY UNREALISTIC).

But of course, we all know Corwin's stats are…

Str : 12
Dex : 14
End : 16
Int : 16
Wis : 17
Cha : 18


….right ? And he choose them of his own volition at birth, right ?

Some of you may actually enjoy dinner obligations in everyday life. But making them mandatory in a Sci-Fi or Fantasy RPG is simply mundane, menial, tedious, inappropriate silliness and stupidity.

In a RPG, having to gather the oatmeal for breakfast and the chicken drumstick for dinner, in order to get ample calories, is the ultimate manifestation of "dumbing-down", to the point of ridiculousness.

If done right, it adds an extra dimension to the game strategy, if done wrong, it makes it tedious and ruins the game.

I feel like I should step in and throw some cold water on the crowd… ;)

First, I should reiterate that I agree with everyone who says food/water can be a pain-in-the-ass. There have been a handful of RPGs that have fouled it up, and no doubt many players cringe at the thought of stopping every 10 minutes of gameplay to spoon-feed your character. This won't be the case with Book 2.

Second, to anyone who is a fan of Eschalon and is concerned that food/water requirements may hurt the next game, you can rest assured that if we can't do it right, it won't be done at all. As noted, this feature should add to the experience, not take away from it. All I can promise is that if it is a drag during beta testing, it'll be pulled.

I can also say that a lot of thought is going into it. We are looking at making it optional via a difficulty setting at the start of the game, but for players who want it, we allow you to deal with food/water in the way that works best for you: buy food, forage for it, hunt for it, find it (via drops), or create it (via magic). Generally speaking, food should not be a challenge to obtain except for when it obviously would be: deep in the bowels of a dungeon, far out it a desert wasteland, or in the middle of a frozen wilderness. These are the situations when a player should take the time to ready his character for the journey by ensuring his water skins are full and an ample supply of rations are packed up.

There will also be quests and various challenges surrounding the use of food/water, so this is more than just another character micromanagement element. This is about increasing the depth of role-playing experience. It's about taking time out of an ongoing quest to spend a few minutes hunting or gathering food, or to put a little validation behind visiting an inn and ordering a serving of mutton and ale while you ask about local rumors.

Thanks for everyone's opinion on the matter. We read them all and consider each one!

Whether I agree or disagree with the eat/drink decision, I'm simply impressed as heck with the level of involvement bw has with his players. Not only does he listen, but he reacts. Kudos! It's interesting that the developers doing this level of "customer service" are the most time-constrained as well. Atari could hire 5 guys with nothing to do all day but interact with players--listen and react-- but they don't. It's the guys that are practically a one-man show (bw with Eschalon, Vince with AoD) that make time.

I liked the way it was done in Betrayel at Krondor. That poisoned food was a interesting twist to it all.

I don't remember which game but I remember something like if you'd have your food too long in your bags, it would spoil and if you'd it your spoiled food you'd get poisoned. Was it BaK? Forget.

And thanks for taking the time to talk to us Wrangler! :iloveyou::smitten::cuddle:

Sure, in our everyday reality, a cold shower (water) would jolt people's minds and reset the perspective to a less harrowing, less over-the-top, less hyper-obsessive reaction to a rather trivial game element.

BUT MY RPG PASSION BUBBLETH OVERETH ( I MUST SAY WITH GLEE AND EXASPERATION ) !!!

(AHEM)

My personal opinion (which is shared by anywhere from 5 to 95% of the RPG playing population), is that in NON-Fantasy, generally realistic RPGs like Fallout, having a requirement to stock water in order to avoid dehydration and death is consistent.

But in a fantasy RPG realm, where fire-breathing dragons, healing spells, aggressive/destructive combat spells, magically enchanted weapons, and a myriad of science-defying phenomenon exist, it's contradictory and inconsistent to say "yeah, the laws of 2008 AD science are out the window, but your character still needs to gather and consume 1000+ calories per day and meet the RDA (recommended daily allowance) of vitamins, minerals and nutrients" is really quite silly, mundane, tedious, menial, entirely inappropriate and totally unneccessary *in the context* of a science-defying *fantasy* role-playing *game*.

I'd much rather see you great, creative and courageous indie RPG developers trash the temptation to include mundane 2008 AD realisms in favor of spending more time and resources on party-based play, dialogue depth, game size and NPC development.

Again, that's my personal opinion, and since we are talking recreational games here (yes, I have to remind myself of that, it's my own cold shower), the artistic inclinations of the creators (you) reign supreme and argumentative logic need not apply (in the realm of recreational video games).

It’s obviously a very polarising feature. I’m as old school CRPG as you can get but I’m still in the no camp. This sort of busy work simply isn't fun. I bought Book I and thoroughly enjoyed it ('twas a bit short though). Book II *was* on my must buy list, but I loath this proposed feature so much it's knocked it right down to a "try the demo and maybe".

I'll be okay with it so long as it's optional. The darkness/torch factor of the dungeons in EI was enough realism for me. :)

I'm not a big fan of the way hunger/thirst was implemented in many games to date, but it's not the 'mundanity' aspect that makes me cringe. I believe hunger tracking is only as mundane as the related game mechanics and/or its justification in terms of setting and plot development are.

It was completely superfluous (hence annoying) in Eye of the Beholder II, where, iirc, a cleric spell allowed you to create food for the whole party. This contributed nothing to the game except taking up one spell slot permanently.

In Dungeon Master (a game BW cited as an influence), lack of food and water prevented the player from camping all the time to get back to full health (plus, the possibility of starvation added some extra suspense). An important component of game design which worked well in that respect. It was nevertheless prone to becoming tiresome at times because of the micromanagement.

In ADOM (and other roguelikes) there is an even stronger focus on what your character eats: different races have different metabolism speeds, eating can poison you or make you sick, but also provide beneficial effects and special abilities (eating a fire dragon steak provides fire immunity, etc.). Which makes the whole thing fairly interesting (even enjoyable, except starving to death in a roguelike isn't exactly what I call fun).

To sum it up, the hunger/thirst feature is horrible only if it has no real significance in the game (as in, no real starvation/dehydration threat is present) and/or involves a lot of mouse clicking and drag&drop. Unless you aim for very detailed focus on food (ADOM-style), I'd recommend making consumption as automated (i.e. remove the need to spoon-feed your characters) as possible (or at least provide such option in the settings).

I liked it the way it was implemented in the later 2 parts of the ROA trilogy : One had to built up watchers/guards for the night, and then assisn some "automated tasks" like looking for food, water and herbs.

Feeding was then automated (meaning the charactters were eating when their "hunger-meter" was full, as long as there was food "at hand".

What I would've liked to see there, but which was never implemented, was the use of a "sharpening stone" (grindstone) for the weapons, and automated (and manual, at wish) repair of both armor & weapons - not smithing/forging, by the way, because that was the domain of the smiths in the towns.

One *could* buy and manually use the "sharpening stome" (grindstone), though, which reduced the possibility that a weapon would break ( I almost wrote "brake" ;) ) .