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-   -   Windows 11 (https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47934)

Couchpotato June 25th, 2021 17:14
Yeah the Apple way. Every new update version forces you to buy a new phone. Thing is PCs are not phones they cost a lot more. Unless you buy top of the line $2,000 phones.

Carnifex June 25th, 2021 17:33
I'll be sticking with windows seven until they pry it from my cold, dead hands. Or something like that!!

blatantninja June 25th, 2021 18:50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061646249)
You don't need a TPM chip, for all modern Intel CPUs you can turn on PTT in your BIOS, and all modern AMD chips you turn on fTPM. Your CPU would have to be truly ancient (>6-7 years old) to not have it.
*** looks at my two AMD FX-8350 rigs and Surface Pro 1***

blatantninja June 25th, 2021 18:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDR13 (Post 1061646257)
I think Windows 10 gets a worse rap than it deserves. I've never had any major issues with it, and game compatibility, even with older titles, has been just as good as Windows 7 in my experience.

The only Windows I ever really disliked was Windows 8. That was an abomination.
Yes, but Win 8.1 was pretty great. It ran so much better faster on my machines than Windows 7, and by using a couple add-ins, I didn't even use the start screen on my desktops (loved it on my Surface Pro though)

blatantninja June 25th, 2021 18:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Couchpotato (Post 1061646284)
Yeah the Apple way. Every new update version forces you to buy a new phone. Thing is PCs are not phones they cost a lot more. Unless you buy top of the line $2,000 phones.
Gaming PC's cost more than phones. The average user probably spends less on their PC than they do on their phone though since most users can run everything they want on a sub $1k PC, but new iPhones and Samsung Galaxy phones cost over $1k.

I will say this about Win 10. I've put it on some truly old machines (my Surface Pro 1, my dad's laptop that is even older) and it's always run great. I think in general MSFT does a good job of making their OS compatible with as many legacy systems as possible. Sometimes though, there's a feature in the hardware that comes out that they want to use, and can't work around for older machines.

Couchpotato June 25th, 2021 19:00
Meh part of me knew Microsoft would go this way. It was inevitable. Like I said on the last page you can remove/hack out that requirement but I don't know what it will break.

I'm sure some hack group will fix it where it wont matter anyway.

GothicGothicness June 25th, 2021 22:02
I know I would get the chance to link to this article at some point in time:

"Microsoft confirms there will be no windiws 11"

https://www.techradar.com/news/softw…ows-11-1293309

:D

Stingray June 25th, 2021 22:53
Quote:
Originally Posted by joxer (Post 1061646271)
You're too optimistic.
If you check supported CPUs list, it seems all CPUs older released before 2018. are doomed to stay on win10.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win…tel-processors

I've seen some suggestions on how you can "hack" the installation not to check for TPM presence, but what's the point of such workrounds if OS will want it later to work properly with whatevers part of it.
I hadn't seen that "supported CPUs list" yet, but I'm pretty sure that every CPU on that list supports either PTT or fTPM, so the whole TPM thing isn't an issue at all. I believe everyone who has one of those CPUs will also have TPM, whether it's an actual TPM chip, or PTT/fTPM.

Pladio June 26th, 2021 01:41
Quote:
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness (Post 1061646334)
I know I would get the chance to link to this article at some point in time:

"Microsoft confirms there will be no windiws 11"

https://www.techradar.com/news/softw…ows-11-1293309

:D
That doesn't count … It was written in the previous decade :P

Shagnak June 26th, 2021 02:05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061646339)
I hadn't seen that "supported CPUs list" yet, but I'm pretty sure that every CPU on that list supports either PTT or fTPM, so the whole TPM thing isn't an issue at all. I believe everyone who has one of those CPUs will also have TPM, whether it's an actual TPM chip, or PTT/fTPM.
Hopefully you're right.
According to a thread I saw under a Rockpaprshotgun article that claimed you needed a bona fide TPM 2.0 chip on your motherboard (not just a header) there were people saying that all they had to do was go into their BIOS and ensure that firmware-based TPM was enabled (rather than discrete TPM), so stuff like CPU-based fTPM and TPP worked fine.
I have two newish machines, but a series of older ones (inc. the family gaming rig which is 4th gen i5), so I'm going to do a check with the WIndows11/TPM compatibility check stuff to see.

Shagnak June 26th, 2021 02:52
Well, the two Ryzen 3s are fine, naturally (both are less than a year old and just needed a BIOS setting changed), but the i5 4570 is a no-go (nothing TPM related even on the mobo). I've read that TPM 1.2 will become supported, which means another older Intel mobo I have with that may be usable, but really the family machine can stay on Windows 10 until it gets an upgrade.

I have a i7-6500U laptop that's 6 years old that is supported (has TPM 2.0), and it looks like it's older than anything on the official list.

Stingray June 26th, 2021 06:05
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagnak (Post 1061646350)
Well, the two Ryzen 3s are fine, naturally (both are less than a year old and just needed a BIOS setting changed), but the i5 4570 is a no-go (nothing TPM related even on the mobo). I've read that TPM 1.2 will become supported, which means another older Intel mobo I have with that may be usable, but really the family machine can stay on Windows 10 until it gets an upgrade.
Pretty sure the 4th gen chips have PTT, so if your BIOS won't let you activate it, then that's a motherboard/BIOS issue not a CPU issue. (Not that it helps you…)

Quote:
I have a i7-6500U laptop that's 6 years old that is supported (has TPM 2.0), and it looks like it's older than anything on the official list.
Did the "Health Check" program say it's good to go? Maybe the "supported CPUs" list is meaningless in practice then.

Shagnak June 26th, 2021 09:10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingray (Post 1061646359)
Did the "Health Check" program say it's good to go? Maybe the "supported CPUs" list is meaningless in practice then.
Oops, sorry, no. The Health Check says that the processor is not supported, but TPM check (via running tpm.msc) says that it has TPM 2.0 enabled, so according to lots of articles I've read it should be…
I guess it's a wait-and-see.

Alrik Fassbauer June 26th, 2021 16:56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redglyph (Post 1061646263)
I hate 10 as much as I loved the improvements in 7. What I dislike is mostly the bloatware, ads and all the privacy concerns, and regressions on the UI ergonomics. I want the OS to be just that, an operating system, not an ad or a spying platform.

Simple example, recently on each update, MS forces the "News and interests" large band in the taskbar, and in a foreign language on top of that. It doesn't seem possible to remove it, only to hide it every time it reappears. And I'm pretty sure they'll go one step further in Win11.

Don't even get me started on forced updates or the messy app installation, doing IT support on that was a nightmare in my company (we're switching to Linux now, it was the final nail in the coffin).

At home I'm probably switching to Linux on the next forced iteration of Windows, even more so because of the hardware-locked enforcement they're pushing further (TPM chip). It's become a good alternative despite its fragmentation on the UI front. Unfortunately there too, we have to cope up with Canonical's increasing presence, but there are other well-supported distros. It means bye-bye to most of gaming though.

It's always been a delicate balance for any platform, between being successful enough and not getting ruined by this success. Always the same pattern, repeating over and over.

Rant's over ;)
My mother is playing solitaire card games on the family PC (notebook). When I try to work with it, it's almost impossible to filter out advertisement from real stuff. Even the MS solitaire card games have advertisement windows, if I saw that correctly.

I heavily assume that this was intentional by Microsoft : To let the border between advertisement and serious software blur.

I still hate waterworks err that UI.

Zloth June 27th, 2021 02:57
I actually watched the live stream for the introduction. It's still on YouTube. Very handy if dinner is a couple of hours away and you're already hungry. (eye roll)

I didn't see much interesting. Aero is nice to have - fully taking us back to Win7. The killer feature for me will be DirectStorage, though. DX12U will eventually be must-have, but that's a long way off.

There could be more interesting stuff going on under the hood that will be important at work. Given that we're still stuck in a 2018 version of Win10, though, that will also be a long wait.

Couchpotato June 27th, 2021 04:18
Man you gotta love scalpers and bots. :roll:

Seems after this announcement some of them bought most of the TPM 2.0 Modules on the market that you can install yourself. Just like everything else the price has gone up.

Link - https://www.techpowerup.com/283812/t…pm-2-0-modules
Quote:
Most modern PC platforms include an fTPM (firmware trusted platform module) of some form. Those that don't, have a TPM 2.0 compatible header on the motherboards. Microsoft's requirement of a hardware TPM for Windows 11 has scalpers go after add-on TPMs, which are typically priced around $20, but now marked up to $100, according to price-tracking by Shen Ye, a senior HTC VIVE exec, who has been tracking prices of add-on TPMs on Twitter.

Stingray June 27th, 2021 06:18
So it seems that when Microsoft first put out the Win11 announcement, there was some intent of there being a "hard floor" of TPM 1.2+ (with no CPU requirement), and a "soft floor" of TPM 2.0+ and a supported CPU. Only the hard floor was truly required. But since then, they silently changed web pages and the "Health Check" program to make it clear that TPM 2.0+ and a supported CPU is going to be required. (Also, the "Health Check" program now displays the reason your computer isn't good enough, instead of just saying it isn't good enough.) So maybe the CPU requirement will really be enforced?

If it is, then the TPM requirement is meaningless, because I'd imagine every CPU on the supported list has builtin TPM (PTT or fTPM). The list is basically Intel 8th gen and later CPUs, and AMD Zen+ and later CPUs. Roughly 2018+.

Redglyph June 27th, 2021 10:40
That's pretty insane.

We'll have to see if that stands from a legal point of view, it seems really out there.

In any case, RedHat will love this, more customers for them :D

Ripper June 27th, 2021 10:52
I actually think this makes some sense. The security of desktop systems really is pitiful, even compared to the design of phones. Implementing a more secure OS, requiring a TPM, is a step forward, IMO. All future hardware will clearly now include a TPM, and it makes sense to have a version bump to clarify the distinction. Then Windows 10 can be supported long term, until it's likely everyone will have upgraded anyway. I'd be quite surprised if they try to force everyone to Windows 11 quickly, and say "tough luck" to millions of people.

Redglyph June 27th, 2021 10:55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper (Post 1061646508)
I actually think this makes some sense. The security of desktop systems really is pitiful, even compared to the design of phones.
Do you mean the security of applications, against piracy?


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