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Why the Fallout 3 = Oblivion comparision is both unfair and blind
This will be a rant. I will play the devils advocate for a moment and I will even be so blasphemous that I dare to openly criticize a developer to which I confess I am a complete fanboy.
I cannot subscribe to comparing Fallout 3 to Morrowind/Oblivion and frankly I consider that comparison blind, unfair and maybe even biting the hand that feeds you. Let me play the devils advocate and change perspective for once. First up, Fallout 3 and Oblivion will have essentially the same amount of similarities that Knights of the Old Republic and Jade Empire had, or why not Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale? Reusing the same engine is only natural and if there are any rule about developing a game, it's that the second game using the same engine will ultimately be better than the first one. In the end, the game is in the game, not in it's engine! Now. A Role-playing game to me have nothing to do about the interface. That's a point in which I know many will disagree, but it wont give you the rights to claim that real cRPG's cannot be played in First-Person. First-person feels absolutely right for me for a roleplaying game, a perspective I have had since Ultima on C64. The first era of RPG's were almost ALWAYS in first-person, from Wizardry, to Dungeon Master, To Might and Magic to Eye of the Beholder. It feels right because it means you are your character and you see the world through your characters eyes. Play a game like Deus Ex and System Shock 2 and tell me that first-person isn't natural for a roleplaying game. First-person is simply great if you wish to build immersion, just watch this trailer about Far Cry 2 and you will see what I talk about. I also am not bothered by an FPS mode. I loved Deus Ex and System Shock 2, and I loved Vampire: Bloodlines which is highly regarded by most cRPG fans that I have encountered. I also loved S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and BioShock. I haven't seen that many complain about Mass Effect that can be played just like a shooter if you want to. I had enough about turn-based in Pools of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. A pause-function to execute commands is ok, but suffering through a whole battle turn-based is just one thing that I wish to leave in the past. I didn't see anyone complain about the lack of turnbased in Mask of the Betrayer or Planescape Torment. Now let me allow myself to be critical against Bioware/Obsidian (who to me are the spiritual remains of Black Isle, unless you count Troika who now are dead) and explain what Bethesda do right!. First; what does Fallout have IN COMMON with Oblivion and Morrowind? They are free-roaming, open-ended and non-linear. I have always preferred that style of roleplaying games (Gothic, Arcanum etc) and I even enjoyed First-Person Shooters that offers that sense of freedom, such as Far Cry and Crysis. Now if we would have a new Fallout from Obsidian or Bioware today, it would have been strictly scripted and static, with a great story but with severely dumbed down mechanics. Second; Fallout 3 will be the first roleplaying game in ages with multiple social skills. Suck on that for awhile… The original Fallout came out in the 90'ies… but how many sucessful roleplaying games during the recent years can you mention that have multiple non-combat skills? Mass Effect had two, and they had essentially the same usage, simply aligned to the path you took through the game. You were usually offered to use both skills in the same situations and the outcome were almost always the same. Neverwinter Nights 2 had a wider range of possibilities for your characters, but how successful was the game among fans of cRPG's? Many still consider it a "terrible game". If Bethesda manages to convince mainstream that social skills are fun, then maybe a new era in roleplaying games can be born. This might, however be the last chance ever that a "social" RPG's is made by a large developer. If reviewers complains over the social skills, then it's game over for the whole genré. No large developer will ever give them a chance again. Finally; Fallout 3 seems to contain real moral choices. Bioware/Obsidian have now boiled themselves down to "Good/Evil", an option that I find completely uninteresting and usually boils down to "forgive everything that threatens you" to "burn everybody who supports you[/b]. Real moral choices have no obvious "right" answer. In fact, the old perspective "chaotic/lawful" was more interesting than good/evil. I do not even believe in good/evil anymore. So there you go. To summarize, the complaints against Fallout 3 is counter-productive and most of them hypocritical considering that pretty much everything people complains about have already been successfully tried by other developers and then met with praise. Fallout 3 actually reintroduces several aspects which most RPG developers wouldn't even consider today. A rather daring move in a changed market. |
Fallout 3 !=Oblivion
Fallout 3 = Oblivion with Guns Modern Games with social stats ? NWN 2 and Drakensang. We don't need a Bethesda-Fallout. If there are any interesting moral choices in Fallout 3 is yet to be seen. Right now we have the PR-Talk of the Developers who gave us "Radiant AI"… |
I agree that it doesn't have to end up being Oblivion with guns. Far from it - seems to me the writing, choices, consequences of your actions etc etc is all very different in Fallout 3 compared to Oblivion. I'll do what I usually do - wait and see, and then make up my mind about it.
Truth be told, Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate is a fairly bad comparison - IWD was made by Black Isle, BG was made by BioWare. Same engine, yes, but not same developers. The others are perfectly valid, and it is certainly easy to see the similarities between Jade Empire, KotOR and Mass Effect. They share a fairly similar recipe, although with certain differences (obviously). |
No offence, JemyM, but I don't really see too much of an argument in the first half of your post. BG and IWD are very similar in a lot of ways. If someone hated BG, I'd be very careful recommending IWD to them. I also get that you like the first-person-free-roaming style…but I don't really see how that is a logical argument for your position that FO3 isn't OB+guns. Nor do I see how your assertion that a BIS or Troika version would be dumbed down is at all supported…what did you base that on?
When I watch the FO3 videos, I get an overwhelming sense of OB with guns (and the latest one with the mudcrabs crab mutants made me groan). Is it a fair comparison? I don't know - I haven't played it. But from the video footage, that's what it looks like to me. The addition of social skills and multiple paths in FO3 is very welcome. The reason for the cynicism is Bethesda haven't embraced this before (arguably exluding Daggerfall), so what (recent) history do we have to go on? I'm open to the possibility they'll do a good job but that remains to be seen. In the meantime, other games have social skills, such as Vampire: Bloodlines and Mask of the Betrayer. I hear Bethsoft talking about all these possibilities but when I watch the videos, I find it a bit underwhelming. Take Megaton and Mr Burke, for example. The character walks into a bar and the first sentence with this guy has him talking about blowing the town up. Does that make sense? I realise many/most RPGs get this sort of subtlety wrong but it's the sort of writing Interplay got right and I haven't seen signs that Bethsoft can match it. |
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Were it not for your extensive posting history, I would disregard your "rant" as little more than the purposely inciting declaration of a troll. As it is, I am forced to consider whether you deliberately arranged this, merely in order to be given the opportunity to defend a company of which you are a self-proclaimed fan.
Having said as much, here's you first chance… Quote:
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To whit: attempt to create a physics-based game in an engine with no physics support, a first-person shooter that can be scrutinized according to modern standards with a seven-year old engine, a "graphically immersive" title in an engine that has a low onscreen poly-count cap. Quote:
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As I've already stated, I take no issue with the choice to make F3 first-person. I, however, prefer third-person in games. Why? Well, I could justify it by saying that said view allows you to observe the entire character at once, to empathize with what happens to them and enjoy their full physical interaction with the environment, hence enhancing your immersion. To put it pointedly, though, that's complete crap. I like it better, end of story. As for "immersion," well, I won't bother delving too deeply into that one. To put it simply, perspective in a game has nothing to do with immersion. True, it can heighten or detract from such, but the principle means of immersing oneself in the game is found within the storyline. The most simple means of verifying that is by reading a book. Where's the perspective? The interaction? They don't exist, yet I defy you to resist becoming immersed in a good novel. Quote:
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Still, you are assuming that the present development team at Bethesda Softworks has shown themselves competent of producing quality "free-roaming, open-ended and non-linear" games. Let's take these one by one (using Oblivion as an example), shall we? Free-roaming: You could walk about the countryside without restriction and most areas were initially available. Check! Open-ended: I'm drawing a blank here… Non-linear: This one depends on how you define the concept of "non-linearity." Does it mean the ability to approach events in your choice of order? Or is it the option to resolve an event is a number of unique manners? Personally, I choose the latter, hence a game such as Oblivion is not non-linear, whilst The Witcher is. One out of the two I covered is not an encouraging result. In a scholastic setting, fifty-percent is equivalent to failure. Quote:
That's pure and idle speculation, nothing more. You were better off arguing with opinions. Quote:
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Child molestation. Rape. Genocide. Yep, not one of the above qualifies as evil, right? Quote:
To summarize, you failed to address in any manner how a comparison between Fallout 3 and Oblivion is "unfair" or "blind" in a cogent fashion. I'll do it for you, in a swift and easily perusable fashion: bullets. THINGS THEY HAVE IN COMMON * First-person perspective * Action-oriented gameplay, notably the shooting elements (archery in Oblivion was a FPS) * Utilization of the Gamebryo engine * Todd Howard and numerous members of the same development team * Same PR-team, same hype process * "hilariously, embarrassingly wooden animation" (Eurogamer) * "the map being the same" (2OpGaming) * Terrible, console-friendly interface (my opinion and that of other sane individuals) * "random [attacks] by savage rats" (2OpGaming; arbitrary, but come on…) Finally: "I don’t discount that folks are going to call it that […]" copied verbatim from Pete Hines himself. When even the PR guys have to acknowledge that the similarities between the two are apparent enough to draw frequent remarks, it's obvious something is amiss. |
Should have typed that reply out faster. A few of my points were touched on before I submitted my initial message. Still, I do hope you reply. I'm quite eager to hear your defense.
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But… from what I've seen so far, I'm rather skeptical about Bethsoft actually being able to pull this off. The examples of moral choices shown so far seem pretty thoroughly in the usual "Be evil (Y/N?)" mold. Quote:
That had genuinely complex moral choices to make, with often no unequivocal good or evil choice, and the evil choices were, generally speaking, *motivated.* I played through the evil storyline in it, and while I did any number of thoroughly despicable things in it, I always felt there was a *reason* for doing them. It wasn't just random mayhem, and these choices were beautifully reflected in my companions' attitudes. Gann thoroughly approved of my destroying the Slumbering Coven, One of Many gleefully egged me on to do stuff for him/her/it/them, and so on. Quote:
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The comparison is both valid as well as potentially misleading. It is valid as it clearly shares the engine, many gameplay elements (free roaming in 3D, minigames, physics, own-a-house) and philosophies (large gameworld, free roaming, real-time combat). It may also be entirely misleading if you consider the essence of Fallout in its setting, choice-and-consequence gameplay, SPECIAL, quest design, etc. - all these could be very different (and hopefully better) from Oblivion if we believe Bethesdas hype. In two months we will know.
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then it is like : "They just don't do it and i can't change it, because no publisher would hier my cries, and most likely no developing company as well". It's pure resigning. They just don't do it. No matter how much I want them to do it. They just don't do it. |
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The second argument is that Fallout is a free-roaming game, and if one develops a free-roaming game today it would be like Oblivion. Or Morrowind, or Gothic, or Far Cry, or even Grand Theft Auto. I cannot be the only one who drew comparisions between Fallout and Gothic because that free-roaming style was what drew me to both. Quote:
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And Drakensang *is* available, just not in English. |
KazikluBey, I skipped a few comments that you hadn't really thought through. MotB is not a "win-all-argument" when I use comments like "most developers wouldnt consider". In fact, the lack of titles you mentioned (or could mention) to support your points kinda proves my point.
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Huh? NWN2 considered inferior to NWN1? I know the tools were a bit too advanced, and therefore the mod makers didn't make as many modules, leading to a smaller community, but I believe the game itself is considered superior to NWN1 in pretty much every way - gameplay (controlling the party, instead of having useless "henchmen"), story (by far), dialogue options/choices/consequences, etc etc.
MotB was the single best D&D experience I've had since Baldur's Gate 2 (not counting Throne of Bhaal - MotB is better than ToB). If MotB was any indication, SoZ will end up being a very good experience, far from dumbed down in any way. |
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themadhatter: I had to cut down the size of your reply a bit, but you had many valid points to which I simply agree. I only replied where I felt I had to clarify or elaborate.
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It is definitely dumbed down compared with Fallout. But it's not dumbed down compared to Oblivion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Two Worlds and Fable. Quote:
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Then I felt dead as a gamer. Quote:
The fact that there was only one way to solve quests and that they were usually quite bad is part of the reason why I disliked Oblivion as much as I did. Quote:
Jade Empire and Mass Effect have shown what direction Bioware take their games. Quote:
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These bullets are simply natural considering the two games are developed by the same company. Quote:
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Neverwinter Nights 2: 82.1% Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer: 82.1% Vampire: Bloodlines: 81% (Which is also a four year old game, after which Troika died) For emphasis: The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, 93.1% Knights of the Old Republic: 93% Final Fantasy XII: 91.1% Mass Effect: 90.7% Neverwinter Nights: 88.8% Quote:
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Unfortunally, Obsidians next game will be an action-rpg. Quote:
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There have been some interesting games that actually used more advanced philosophy than good vs evil. Actually, Final Fantasy X, Mask of the Betrayer and Gothic III questioned the very idea in an almost Nietszche-style critizism against institutions that claim to be the "good" guys. Jade Empire and KOTOR2 also had an excellent take on it, even if Jade Empire eventually boiled down to the old good/evil concept. Quote:
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In the latest edge magazine they mention that while it maybe oblivion with guns that label is as obfuscatory and useless as arguing that planescape torment was fallout with swords.
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