I assume he means the whole trailer, not the song(s).

Georg Zoller makes quite an honest argument on the profit and the masterpiece of "serious" games at Dragon Age forum. BTW, when checking out the forum, I recommend you to utilize dragonagecentral.com, which comes handy when you haven't registered to the boards.

As far as economic background is concerned, I agree with him, which is why I regard Bioware designers as professionals than artists. However, it is true that they have managed to keep making games which can sell to quite many people while leaving some factors which appeal to old-timer CRPG players. In fact, Dragon Age can be the first game I'm ending up with buying after these years. Considering the inflated cost for making games, if I'm interested in the games for mainstream at all, it means it has some factors which I can be interested in. It may be story, atmosphere or gameplay. In Dragon Age's case, as I'm not a great fan of writing of David Gaider, I don't expect from Dragon Age except the real-time tactical combat.

And yet I couldn't but think they could have made a single good trailer if they had solid concept on their content at all.

I don't know… I think the weird thing here is that DA seems like a totally generic and unoriginal fantasy RPG like millions before it. But then just to be a little bit different they go wild on the music which just seems really odd.
My opinion is that if they do the generic, unoriginal thing, you know, then do it wholly. Pull it through. All the way. Do the orchestral soundtrack and the whole nine yards.
But don't do something as silly and stupid as this crap. What's next? Are they going to announce smurfs as a playable race just to make the game a bit more different even?
It may be a little too late for all the silliness. It probably would have been better to come up with a more original, creative and distinct setting (and marketing approach) from the very beginning.

Hey, it's not like every other fantasy RPG out there! It's Dark! And Gritty!

Seriously, though: the game has been in development for… many years, and in conceptual design for quite some time before that. It was first announced before Jade Empire came out IIRC. Back then, there weren't many Dark! or Gritty! RPG's around -- and I don't think it's quite fair to fault BioWare for their choices at that time because a number of them have come out since then, taking some of the shine off the concept.

I for one freely admit to whining about the lack of maturity in cRPG's back then -- I was heartily sick of generic heroic high fantasy with elves and dwarves and halflings and orcs and wizards and beleaguered kings and a romantic side quest, and was really keen to see something a bit deeper, a bit more serious, and a bit more mature. Now things have swung to the other extreme, to the point that the Dark! Gritty! Mature! thing is actually kind of funny in an endearing sort of way. I'm sure we'll see plenty of unicorns-n-rainbows fantasy too, once the economy picks up again, the North Koreans calm down, Obama makes us do carbon-trading and save the planet, and everybody stops feeling like they're d0m3d. With any luck this'll be just in time for a nice, upbeat, heroic finale to the Mass Effect trilogy.

Until then, I'll expect more grittiness, and enjoy it while it lasts.

Of course, here, dark means just a superficial tone rather than something which has deeper themes, However, I'm not stupid enough to expect a mainstream movie to be like an independent film…at least not that stupid, I mean. As Zoller says, if you like a work specifically fits your taste, go and pick up an indie game. "Bioware Corp." have to earn a certain amount of money to keep their jobs, which makes them almost incapable of making an original game with an original setting. In fact, I was surprised by the setting they chose for Jade Empire.

I think this "we want rather profits than masterpieces" led to - among other thing - these debates about Oblivion, Morrowind etc. . Like this, for example.

Games that are not masterpieces become heavily discussed, because they aren't masterpirces.
This means they leave something to be desired in the eyes of some players.

But - the bad thing I see is that the results of these discussions - I assume that the developers are or might be/should be aware at least of the biggest discussions - are never put into a revisiting that game. Morrowind weith better bodies ? Never made by the developers. They did instead Oblivion, instead of giving Morrowind everything it needed to become kind of a … well, further towards the direction of a "masterpirce". At least a little bit.

Usuually, this is often done with add-ons, no ?

Instead, it received additions - I mean official ones - that never ever had anything to do with more polishing and fine-tuning the whole game. Well, apart6 from the "Bitter Coast Sounds Plugin", for example.

The results of these discusions were eventually put into a wholly different game - Oblivion - that has nothing to do with Morrowind except the overall setting.

Me, as a player, this kind of behaviour quite frustrates me. It's like … Your car has some slight errors, okay, you can drive with it, even quite comfortably so, but it will never be a kind of "masterpiece".

And then I'm told, "if you wanna have an masterpiece, then you've gotta buy our next car ! Because we won't polish your car anymore ! All of our effotrs go into our NEXT car !"

What they don't tell is, that because this next car will be a NEW development, it will also contain NEW mistakes and faults will might need to be polished/fine-tuned …

So it never ends. It is always the NEXT car … The NEXT game … And thus, CURRENT games never reach REAL maturity … Never ever masterpieces …


And even worse: REAL masterpieces don't sell enough …

Actually, I'm one of people who think the setting was changed into generic fantasy from Morrowind to Oblivion in order to make the game more accessible. Morrowind has its own history, which was described in various materials ranging from local oral legend to books through various cultures, reflecting various views. The core plot is weaved through an ancient hero but the views to the hero is different among subjective views represented in each cultural background. This is my guess but I'm quite sure the core concept is built based on The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which is a refreshingly interesting twist to the chosen one plot in fantasy setting. Now, the setting of Oblivion… *shrug*

I guess you would eventually feel like that if you keep indulging yourself with being soaked in consumerism to your neck. A kind of Gatsby syndrome.

Personally, before buying something, I'd ask myself if I really want a product or not. This is a simple trick which may not totally make me free from consumerism but allows me to keep a certain distance to it. I'm not eager supporter of prosumer concept but it must be something to do with this psychology. It is not only money but also time which plays a role in this. Some people find piracy a problem but, for me, I don't think there are so many games worth my time. Especially people who are working or, at least, engaging in a certain activities, time is more important. There are always better things to do. Especially about single player "serious" games, they won't be used for social purposes different from Hollywood movies. So, the decision is rather easy.

From what I've read, the "dark" is suppose to come from more than just beefed up graphic/violent content…but rather the thin grey line of moral choices and dilemma's presented throughout the character's storyline.

I'm excited that they've tried to make a game where you're choices matter in more ways than you wind up on a different map or such.

I plan on playing the game and choosing as close to what I'd personally do in the circumstances as I can. Will be interested to see where that leads me, but somewhat in familiar territory I suppose because I "try" to do what I consider is the right thing, even in a game ;)

But will be exciting to see what storyline twists and surprises they have in store, I doubt some of the choices will be "easy" ones.

Regards

That's what Bioware designers are saying but I cannot take them at their word.

After all, the player character is going to be take a role in an elite fighters and going to save the world, which is basically following the storyline of older Bioware games. Furthermore, from what I glimpsed from the boards, David Gaider, the creative lead designer, didn't seem to have noticed the basic nature of the story arch till he wrote quite a lot in human origin story, which appears to be a chosen one story arch. To my eyes, it is obvious that the chemistry won't work at a glance. I always think he is not a writer who develops a story around an interesting and solid theme but one who copies quite many factors from other materials, patching them up to make his own work, which is rather typical to fantasy/Sci-Fi writers who are popular to a certain age group.

Even to me, the lack of the global morality slider is welcome but I'm not convinced that Bioware team is capable of making full use of the "grayness" of the world, weaving it into the development of themes.

I may be too selective when it comes to story elements but, to me, this part is seriously lacking in games.

Just like cars, you should take games at face value. Decide at the time of purchase whether the game as it stands is fun enough for you to spend time playing, and don't get it if not.

I can't imagine buying a product that I didn't like, only on the promise that it would turn into the product I liked some time in the future.
It was changed back to a setting more consistent with the previous Elderscrolls games. Morrowind was a real step away from Daggerfall, and at the time many many people praised the 3d and level of polish, but wished for the game to feel more like Daggerfall - Oblivion delivered exactly that and I think listening to their fans is at least partly responsible for Oblivion being such a good game.

While I personally prefer some of the more complex character stylings of Obsidian over BioWare's use of clear archetypes, many people would say BGII is a classic of the genre and the story in KotOR tends to rate pretty well - both games David Gaider was strongly in.

I realise BGII isn't really an example of grey choices but I've liked a lot of Gaiders comments on the forums. What exactly is the missing chemistry you see?

The taste of old fans is not necessarily to belong to minority. I can only represent my view although I have read some articles like this one which is more or less similar to my view. I know we are rather minority and I honestly wonder how many people have noticed the design philosophy behind Morrowind. I think the author is quite keen especially when he doesn’t seem to know the involvements of Ken Rolston to a PnP RPG called Rune Quest, the core design of which is a simulation in worlds filled with various ideologies, and thus, viewpoints.

I'd say, solid and through themes and their presentations, which are normally practiced by decent novelists, for starters. In the world of gaming, it appears to be done only by limited number of people, though.

This is an example by Chris Avellone. His thought ranges from possible themes to theatrical role of characters and their chemistry. Compare it with what David Gaider wrote in Bioware forum. To my eyes, the difference is so obvious. Of course, if you can be satisfied with good-old fantasy novels, you will not likely see a problem in the works by Bioware, which are, I think, the majority.

P.S. I cannot thank enough to Google, which help me easily find articles on the net I have read long time ago.

Sorry for the snips. I had to do this so the quote didn't seem that long. And I only needed the part about the 'grayness of the world'.

Actually, Iøm quite confident that the greyness (or grayness?) of the world willbe shining through the game. David Gaider did write the quests for Athkathla in BG2, and they were not either yes or no, or black and white quests. They were interesting quests were you had to think about what answers you wanted to give.

Here's something from Dragon Age Central:

http://www.dragonagecentral.com/single/1170963840

taken from one of Mary Kirby's posts in this thread:

http://daforums.bioware.com/forums/v…orum=135&sp=60

Sheryl basically is saying that in Dragon Age, the adventure finds you; you might have to choose between what seems good and what seems evil, but often may not be - as there are right or wrong choices in Dragon Age.

Here's a quote form Dragon Age central:

"There is no ultimate good and ultimate evil. Sometimes people have to choose between bad and worse. You can look at someone who seems evil and say "Yes, I see why he did this, and his intentions were good."

Sheryl is also saying that we can be the light in a dark and bleak world - and that we will have the backing of our loved ones and friends.

I'm not that worried about Bioware not achieving the greyness in the game; I'm worried about being an elite soldier going around rallying support for an armny.
[As if the Grey wardens were the US Navy Seals people called into solve their problems for them…].

Maybe once the game is out, we'll have an actual chance at experiencing what's really in it - instead of relying on promises and developer hype :)

Just a thought.

Guys, this is a very serious and mature game.

Would you call this trailer a very serious and mature video?

Excessively serious and mature.

Yep, it´s Andrei Rublev of game trailers.

The Internet is serious business, you know.

I would also think the video depicts a grim game, and I would even venture to say it's gritty, and certainly mature