oh go blow a dwarf already, Tan!

But I guess you'd actually have to play the game youve got as the focus of your little crusade!

Somewhere in cold Edmonton….

*Bioware calls xsamhainx: Please, come back kissing our ass, we miss you!*

You know, there are counselors trained to deal with people with your mental condition…. i dont care where you get help, just please get it. Soon

Priceless, Sammy, absolutely priceless. Laughed my butt clean off :D

My mental condition is called intelligence, something you'll never have. Indeed, I should get help.. to understand how your little brain works so we can improve our communication. :)

Well, at least you can make weasels laugh. That's a small step, but one nonetheless.

I seriously doubt this.

I'd call your mental condition simply "bragging around".

Wow, have we come to this? Hey, I'm no angel, but RPGWatch seriously was always different from all teh interwebz as far as this stuff is concerned. I suck a lot of the time as well, but (almost) never here. :P Here I just complain about the complainers, but without it turning into a name-calling exercise.

It's sort of entertaining, though, I guess. I'm bored that way sometimes, reading through the gutters of teh intarwebz. :)

I'd like to post an intelligent counter to DArtagnan's praise of Dragon Age as art and dismissal of Mass Effect in the same breath, but I just can't bring myself to it right now.

So, uh, flame on then I guess?

Guys, just ignore him. from reading his posts a bit i don't see any reason to reply to anything this guy says. he's obviously a troll and there's no way to really deal with trolls except ignoring them.

on another note, Dragon Age is simply brilliant, especially in terms of storytelling and voice overs. i mean, Bioware were always good on this side of gaming but Dragon Age takes them into a higher level on those terms.

and it's nice to finally have a tactical rpg to play. while it starts of easy it's getting to that pause-every-second tactical management we all remember from BG2 and co later on. especially if you decide to not auto manage you're group.

So no one is allowed to tell Tan to get over himself? No one? We are supposed to just sit here and take his nutty viewpoint? I'm supposed to sit here and take being called an overzealous freak whose family was gang raped? Really Thaurin?

Taking the higher ground is all well and good, but when someone makes personal attacks of that nature on ME, well then you might understand how I might not appreciate that? And I appreciated it when other people told him and others how nuts he is.

I've already added Tan to my ignore list. Sometimes, he was funny, but this is getting ridiculous. Plus, I can't believe you took the holier than thou attitude with this. He says that my family was gang raped and you have the audacity to say other people are name calling. Weird…..

I'm done with this conversation. You try and pull yourself together after reading so many people going after a person who threw abusive insults at me.

You know I agree with everything you said about the game…were on the same page here. I love it.

Alrik, skavenhorde and co., your little clan doesn't impress me, at all. You can keep flinging shit (probably hitting each other in the face due to low cunning/dexterity), but you're mistaken if you think it'll make me leave. It won't. I'll eat you for breakfast and digest before lunch. Also, it's a pleasure if you put me on ignore and announce it publically of course, because it means you're butthurt enough to do so. It also means I don't have to waste time on your idiotic replies to my posts. Win-win. :D

And lets not forget that skavenhorde is the one who first started getting personal with Baron; how he's "just grasping at things to complain about", instead of addressing the issue. Like he and co. usually do. I know your little clan gets in a frenzy when someone dares to criticize your fovourite company or favourite forum posters.. but you have to learn to deal with it. It will make your virtual life, probably the only life you have, less miserable.



Were you so agitated when you read my post thus getting confused about what I wrote or you really do not understand the difference between a question and a statement?

PS. To keep it vaguely OT, level scaling in DA is atrocious. :/ Especially noticeable if you've improved your survival skill (it shows the level of monsters).

Enough. No personal insults and stick to the topic, please.

That would be interesting :)

But keep in mind that I don't dismiss Mass Effect, and I've always said it was a good to great game. At least we agree on Jade Empire? ;)

That said, from my point of view, ME was a game that couldn't really decide whether to be a straight-up action/adventure or a CRPG. The character system was downright awful, and the loot aspect pathetic. The "tactical" control was really quite bad, especially when you compare it to something like Dragon Age.

However, with those negative aspects aside, it was a marvellous science fiction movie with "decent" action gameplay to back it up. That's kinda what I felt about it. I just consider it quality mainstream entertainment rather than "true art" because it seemed to sacrifice or "dumb down" too many elements for the sake of the casual players - or the non-enthusiasts as I prefer to call them. I don't mean casual as a negative, at all, just a group that doesn't care about gaming on the same level as an enthusiast.

Dragon Age seems to be catering to enthusiasts primarily, and it's certainly made AND designed with some serious enthusiasm for depth and complexity - without entirely becoming "grognard". Everything flows so well together, and it's made without much concern like "oh no, what will casuals think of this difficulty, this amount of dialogue, or this level of text-based background material" - so well, that's kinda my idea of art as opposed to quality entertainment that's basically a business venture first.

Same to you, thank you. ;)

And thanks for letting me realize that you cannot distinguish people who are NOT in any kind of clan whatsoever from other people. ;)

I find this very interesting that you cannot let lose yourself from this kind of thinking.

Several months ago I was analysing the post of someone who wasvery good at insulting people, and like you he or she used the formulation of "you mean nothing to me", as a try to degregade everyone discussing with you.

That person actually used very much the same ductus than you do, claiming that we all are nothing against you, you are the king, everyone else's opinion doesn't matter much to you at all.

So I assume that you are the very same person, re-materialized under a different screenname,
or that in the circles you go around this kind of ductus is common course: Claiming that everyone is nothing against the poster. Like I said above.

I find it disturbing to think that there has evolved a certain culture of people communicating in no other way than saying that everyone apart from them selves is nothing compared 2U. This way of handling criticism by saying "you mean nothing to me" = "you are at the lowest level of humanity" or so
is astonishingly immature.

Considering this amount of "immature-nes", I can claim very much that this way of handling criticism by trying to degrade EVERYONE who has claimed such a criticism
is a very good way to determine the age of the poster. Since this behaviour is so much immature, this posting can only come from a youngling.

A *truly* mature person is not only able to actually endure criticism, but also able to ask for the reasons of it. What we call in German langage "asking behind it". Honest criticism is able to point out weak points in a discussion course - unlike you do. You don't give reasons for your criticism, you just assume that everyone thinks like you.

Me, I'm standing above criticism, like every true mature person does, and I'm able to withstand criticism - at least to some extend - unlike you are able to. Otherwise I cannot find a logical explanation for your way of writing things like "you mean nothing to me".

You have a lot to learn, kid.

Please try and refrain from personal insults and name-calling. (As I've said before, I have enough of this at home since I live in Denmark where people are calling each other all sorts of names - I don't like it happening here). There's an internet expression called 'don't feed the troll' that might be of use here, I think?

To be more on topic, I still think it's great :) that the Bioware devs. actually are communicating with their fans over at the forums; many companies do not do this anymore. And many game companies don't even care about supporting their games e.g. by making patches or helping people with quests they can't complete.

And yes, there will be another patch as Bioware is working on one…

Ehm, not to derail - but I live in Denmark too, and what's this about namecalling?

I mean, I doubt that's country specific - but anyway ;)

About Tan - I think he's proven here that he's not to be taken seriously, and I agree that we should probably focus on the topic at hand.

No, but it just deteriorates into a back and forth every time and it derails topics completely. Plus, personally I'd hardly care what a name on the screen says about me or my family. :) Wasn't talking about anyone in specific, except that half the topic was suddenly about something irrelevant. So I'll just leave it all at that.

Oh, I thought you were one of several who back then complained about the setting being derivative and unoriginal, wishing for more innovative ideas being implemented in games. Someone quoted an author as an example.

I also was under the impression that you meant with art the "content" part of Dragon Age: the characters, story, setting, races, etc. all of which are at least as derived from earlier works as Mass Effect.

While I think it would be interesting to have truly innovative storytelling in a video game rather than rehashing tried and true stereotypes, for me that is not a requirement for enjoying myself. Personally, I don't even need fresh game mechanics in every time, something every reviewer clamours for in almost every review they write (especially in adventure games, wtf?).

If your "true art" remark pertains more to game mechanics, then we'll have an entirely different discussion. :)

And I'd argue that Mass Effect also had a great deal of depth, complexity and dialogue--but of course then I'm talking about setting again, not gameplay. You would spent a good part of the game talking to characters or reading the Codex (if you wanted it). I agree that Dragon Age takes it all a bit further, especially on the tactics and difficulty levels, something I'm painfully noticing in the Xbox 360 version. At first, I thought the basic gameplay would be the same, but now I fear that the PC version may be a significantly different experience. More tactical and "flowing" (as you put it), that is. They tried to make it more like Mass Effect on console.

Oh well, maybe it's just the Eurogamer review (6/10) that put that thought in my mind, as the rest of the world seems to like it well enough.

Eurogamer gave it 8/10.

Oh, I'm rarely one to mind that, because I'm not so much a story person as I'm a gameplay person.

That said, it can POTENTIALLY bother me if I recognize too many things from familiar works.

I'd say Mass Effect was very good in the story department, but carried several obvious "inspirations" from works such as Babylon 5 and other popular sci-fi shows. I counted more than one nearly DIRECT quote, but I took it more as an homage than creative theft - mostly because the developers have been quite frank about the game being a mixture of various established sci-fi works.

Also, I think Babylon 5 shamelessly rips Tolkien off in a lot of ways, so it's all fair game ;)

Nah, not so much those things as the no-nonsense approach to gameplay and difficulty. However, the work done in terms of establishing the world and all the lore DO play a large part in my respect for Dragon Age as a work of art. Mass Effect was good, but Dragon Age takes it to a whole new level - but that's just my opinion.

I don't think it's quite as clear-cut altogether though, as in story/setting vs gameplay originality.

It's my opinion that it's impossible not to derive from other works in games of this nature. It's more what you do with that and how much thought you pour into your work.

It's my personal opinion that the work poured into Dragon Age in terms of story and setting is more thorough than what went into Mass Effect. But that's just my impression of the games, and I can't know for sure.

No, it's not about fresh vs stale mechanics. It's about mechanics that satisfy on several levels, not least of which would be the "cerebral" level of not only having choices matter - but also have gameplay evolution inherent in the structure. As in giving people new and more exciting options as the game evolves, where Mass Effect generally suffered HEAVILY from giving players ~"+1 damage" with each skill point and the gear literally being "Gun type X level 12" up from level 11. I have a hard time coming up with something less imaginative and less pleasing in terms of gameplay.

I tried to make it clear, but I guess you could say that. But it's not about fresh ideas vs old ideas. It's about how stimulating the mechanics are, and SEVERAL factors go into that - not least of which are the ones mentioned above. I'll gladly detail the kind of things I'm talking about, if it's not clear as of yet.

We agree on this. But one difference, for instance, is that much of the background lore in ME was actually spoken or read out loud, where Dragon Age drowns you in written background lore. I think a lot of casual gamers will feel overwhelmed by that, which is not normally what business savvy developers ignore.

Yes, players can ignore the Codex - but will likely feel frustrated knowing that they have no clue about the history.

But unlike Mass Effect, you have quite extensive dialogue choices and you're "forced" to read long sentences and not just three words with the main character forming the sentence himself. The conversations are generally much longer and a LOT more involved.

Again, this tells me that the developers wanted to create a fantastic and consistent world, and they just don't care (that much) about whether it's too much for the non-enthusiast. I like that :)

Could be :)

At least keep in mind that I've given this a lot of thought, and that since gaming is my primary passion - it's not just random thoughts ;)

They wrote two reviews. They gave it 6/10 for the Xbox 360 version. They actually subtracted two whole points for the Xbox 360 version. Check out the review.

Yeah, it was pretty obvious that they paid tribute to more than one sci-fi classics, as evidenced by the "film grain" mode and even the soft electronic music. I thought a lot of the atmosphere came from Star Wars, perhaps because of left-over KOTOR inspiration. It did have enough on its own to keep me interested and surprised. I guess I'm not as demanding as some people.

I already conceded this point, although I'm only just past the origin story with one of my characters. I really like the way the story is told, but Mass Effect's graphics and cinematic presentation were better. I kind of agree with Eurogamer that the graphics in the Xbox 360 version are not as good as they should be (for whatever reason). I'm even seeing framerate drops in talking head scenes (not necessarily the most graphic intensive moments, I'd assume). So in those departments I sooner think of Mass Effect as "art."

Exactly. It's like reading a modern-day novel and complaining that there are humans in the book, just like every other modern-day novel out there. It's not a bad thing to have elfs that are elfs and dwarfs that are dwarfs in a book or video game; there's still a lot of room for characterization. Not every alien has to be totally original and inventive. It's just written for a certain genre.

You could be right, but I haven't seen enough yet to know that for myself. I hope you're right, so that I'll have something to look out for!

Well, Mass Effect for me was largely "shoot myself through this section so that I can see the next part of the story." The getting stronger part was kind of fun, but obviously not the main attraction of the game. Although the powers were fun to max out, but not especially deep. I guess the player's biggest involvement in Mass Effect was the story and dialogue and the way that was presented. I think there was even more dialogue than combat in the game.

That could be interesting. I'm guessing you mean the types of skills and upgrades you unlock in the game. I've not levelled up enough for the game to really open up strategically, but I have to wonder how much it will on the Xbox 360 version as it's more difficult to issue all kinds of individual orders (but certainly not impossible like Eurogamer initially believed). So I think this part of the game probably shines on the PC and might have lost something in the conversion.

I actually like spoken text. It can be more laid back and I'm not a very fast reader. However, I'm guessing that Dragon Age is capable of having vastly more background in the Codex because of not having to voice-act every single line of text. I guess it's an evolution of the Codex in Mass Effect, playing a bigger role. I suppose that one could have largle done without it in Mass Effect without missing too much. I admit that at one point, I couldn't really keep up and lost interest. Maybe that will be different in Dragon Age.

Oh, definitely, and I feel that I have much more influence on the outcome of things. I haven't played through a section multiple times yet, but I can see how certain things could have played out very differently. It just makes for more satisfying dialogues. I just love a certain canine that's made a certain reappearance. ;)

Mass Effect is just a different design choice (i.e. more linear, restricted). I guess replayability is something your enthusiast would enjoy more than the non-enthusiast? :)

Wouldn't dream of it. :P