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March 18th, 2011, 11:14
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
It means you seem (note the word, please) personally invested in Spiderweb and this game in particular. You seem protective of it.
I meant the part about the mainstream indie, which you later explained. Still, I'll address this.

Hell, no - I'm not neutral. I've been a Spiderweb beta-tester since the early Geneforges and rank some of his games among the best I've played.

The "protective" part is frustration that a "hardcore" CRPG community often won't even try these games with various silly excuses. I then watch various people make pronunciations without even having tried them.

It's more about the vibe you give off about this, and you're seemingly oblivious to how mainstream it seems to have become - or you don't think it's a bad sign.

In any case, it's not possible to prove - and if you're completely neutral, then I'm just wrong about this.
Ah, but I've played it and you haven't. Who has the better perspective? You even say "become", which implies some knowledge of the previous games, which you also don't have. Correct?

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
This from Mike's review […]:

Vogel has been vocal about wanting to get people engaged in the game quickly and easily without losing depth, and with Avadon I feel he struck the perfect balance.
See the "without losing depth"?

One thing missing from the overall development is a diplomacy path. In the Geneforge games, which were single player focused, you could become a very charismatic leader and use your skills to influence outcomes of just about every situation.
I can't disagree but it isn't quite that simple. Avernum has never had a Leadership skill (that was Geneforge only) and I see this as the replacement for Avernum. In other words, it's exactly as it always was. On the other hand, I'd say there are more choices in general than Avernum (do you agree Mike?), which makes it an improvement.

This from some disgruntled player, and I honestly don't know if it's true - but it seems to be from comments on the Watch:

regenerating health and MP, auto-revival after fights, no stats or skills unlocking special dialogue options, quests markers, less classes, less difficult (Vogel stating that no one should die on normal difficulty)…
I posted that in another thread in a different context.

Regen is correct but betrays that the poster may not have played previous Spiderweb games. In Avernum, the First Aid skill replenished health at the end of a battle. Any seasoned player took an appropriate amount - I would often leave battle with more health than I started (small combats could be as good as a healing potion). New players wouldn't know this…which is a bit silly. Why not automate it, rather than just have your knowledgeable players exploit it?

Don't point out he could use a different system altogether - I don't disagree - but the discussion is mainstreaming. Avernum let you auto-heal after a battle - and so does Avadon.

No stats unlocking dialogue - didn't exist in Avernum, anyway (oops, maybe this guy doesn't know what he is talking about).

Quest markers - a handful, mostly in the tutorial. My current map has…oh, look - none!

Less classes - true, but Avernum was a skill system! The "classes" only governed some starting stuff.

Less difficult - also true - but I found "Normal" in AV6 to be reasonably hard, so it should be toned down. I know everyone will overreact (dumbed down! Oh no!) without having played any of them but "normal" should be just that - not "hard" for an experienced player.

There are "hard" and "torment" levels for those that want it and the descriptions are plain to see.

For now, it seems some of you are being overly forgiving, and you seem to be very unwilling to see what's right in front of you.

Then again, you're all pretty forgiving people in general in terms of gaming. Mike, Dhruin, and Ghari are all pretty lowkey slack-cutting people - so it seems to fit your profile
Most people here like The Witcher, right? No character creation, simplified skill medals, action combat, no diplomatic skills that unlock dialogue…and yet, it's a pretty good game. Sometimes a few lines of negative description don't encompass a game.
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