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March 2nd, 2008, 01:14
Originally Posted by Brother None View Post
I wasn't thinking of NWN2, obviously, I was thinking of Fallout 3. I could find examples but I guess you'll take my word for it if I say that the argument that Bethesda's is switching to the "more immersive" first person view (and that this is a good thing) has been made…many, many times.

Perhaps I've been overstating it, but regardless, you would agree that the gaming media applies primacy to "immersive" gameplay for RPGs, no?
No, I haven't noticed a general trend like that. It's certainly been bandied about Fallout 3, by Bethsoft and the gaming press that's repeated their PR.

Is it? I mean, those films that still work in black & white, which is the exception and not the rule for films made now, work because black & white is what's needed. But black & white is something you could argue is only necessary for very specific purposes, whereas otherwise it's outdated technology.

Are you equating this and making the argument that in the same sense non-"immersive" games should be the exception? That first person POV is bound to be as dominant as colour rather than just being a sake of preference?
I suddenly got an awful sense of déjà vu. Haven't we already had this conversation?

No, I am not equating this. It was a flawed analogy. (Aren't they all?)

So let me pick another one. Consider Star Wars: Episode IV, and M.A.S.H. (the Altman film, not the TV series.)

The former has a symphonic soundtrack and three-dimensional, kinetic sound effects. I believe it contributes greatly to that experience.

The latter has extremely carefully constructed ambient "micro-sounds," which are woven into the fabric of the film. That also contributes greatly to that experience.

Neither is technically superior to the other. Both are a big part of the experience of their respective films. Both approaches have been used in films that are complete rubbish, and in other films that are very good.

Because I'm hella disagreeing with you then. This isn't 3D vs 2D we're talking about, and considering how subjective this is, isn't it a bit wild to claim absolute priority for first-person POV?
Yes, it would be. And I wouldn't even claim absolute supremacy of 3D over 2D, for that matter.

BN, the trouble with talking with you about this topic is that I get a feeling that I'm constantly fighting not to get pulled down a slippery slope. I'm leaning backward as far as I can not to say anything that'll set you off, yet it keeps happening. You're extremely sensitive about this topic, and have a tendency to interpret anything I say in the worst possible light.

For example, if I claim that "physical immersion" can be a valid gameplay element that can be used effectively, you respond as if I had claimed that I believe it is the One Gameplay Element To Rule Them All, or something along those lines. Which I don't.

Conversely, if you don't believe that it can ever, under any circumstances, contribute anything of value to any game, ever, then you're being as silly as your "first-person supremacists" -- you're denying the validity of that gameplay element as absolutely as you claim they're denying the validity of isometric, or turn-based, or whatever.
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Prime Junta

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