Fallout 3 - Roundup #10

rune_74 said:

Just because you backpedal later on because you know the ground you are standing on isn't safe doesn't excuse the rest of the drek. Totally agreed with your first post.

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Yeah, I know. I just want to give the guy credit for daring to publicly like the game at all on NMA, if not as a Fallout game.

I believe the first few days of sales are most likely only fans.

The masse of the customers follows later.

Didnt see it on these news but THQ closed five studios just this week. The firm tried to support PC gaming with games like Titan Quest, Company of Heroes, STALKER and Supreme Commander and it cost them dearly.

Pirates thanked the PC supporting company by whining on the forums abt bugs that were really caused by bad cracks:

One, there are other costs to piracy than just lost sales. For example, with TQ, the game was pirated and released on the nets before it hit stores. It was a fairly quick-and-dirty crack job, and in fact, it missed a lot of the copy-protection that was in the game. One of the copy-protection routines was keyed off the quest system, for example. You could start the game just fine, but when the quest triggered, it would do a security check, and dump you out if you had a pirated copy. There was another one in the streaming routine. So, it's a couple of days before release, and I start seeing people on the forums complaining about how buggy the game is, how it crashes all the time. A lot of people are talking about how it crashes right when you come out of the first cave. Yeah, that's right. There was a security check there.
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

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13% isnt much (just hope it doesnt drop from that after 1st week) but it might be enough to earn more fallout ports for PC in future (and possibly the editor too so we get a nma version of fallout3).

Just to let anyone know that is complaining about having to have the dvd in the drive when playing the game you shouldn't have to since securom is only on the launcher and if you use fallout3.exe to run the game you bypass the protection.

@guenthar: thanks, that is great to know.

@zakhal: I see your point, please believe me. As I said before, I do not believe that copy protection schemes are bad per se, but ones that do not protect a game from piracy (as is apparently the case for Fallout 3) and annoy honest gamers (as is the case for Fallout 3 unless you know a workaround) are. Regarding Michael Fitch's post, he was understandably frustrated back then, but his post also highlights one of the problems with DRM and its implementation:

The subtle bugs that hurt the game's reputation were not caused by an incompetent cracking attempt alone, but also deliberatly introduced by the game's protection scheme after the initial validation was removed. Had the game either displayed a warning about playing a cracked copy before shutting down or simply left out these additional "protection" steps the exact same number of people would have pirated the game initially, however the reputation of the game would not have been hurt and more gamers would have been attracked, both pirates and legitimate buyers. That aside, I liked playing (my legitimate copies of) TQ and TQ:IT and while I disagree with some DRM measures I do not want to excuse the actions of the crackers and pirates, whose parasitic behaviour lead to the downfall of Iron Throne.

Maybe if you do not care about your reputation as a developer and simply want to have your revenge on people illegally playing around with some software, a few devious and underhanded protection schemes are really called for. If you want to build up trust between you and your customers and intend to sell your software, this is not a good idea, though! This should have been clear from the beginning, but people still do the same mistakes today (not in Fallout 3, though - to the best of my knowledge some slight DVD annoyances are as far as it goes here).

P.S.: Sorry for the many off-topic posts...

Thaurin said:

I read the comments at NMA sometimes when I'm bored and need a laugh. Internet foolery like that amuses me, like comments from a teenager on a YouTube video.

I haven't read the entire "My First 5 Days" article at NMA because I don't want spoilers, but I can imagine the tone. Some of the regulars at NMA are much worse than Weller, though, and make me laugh with glee.

I think it's interesting and educational to witness how someone can be so caught up in their own world as to be completely unable to comprehend any way of thinking other than their own. I'm the opposite; I should probably form a more stable opinion of things that is my own.

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I think this is possibly the reason I rebel against that group and Vince. Its hypocritical in nature to do that. God help him when he releases his game, people will be ultra critical on him, although I think the NMA stick together pretty good.

I actually read the day 4-5 of his 5 first days and he seems more positive than negative about the game.
Even concludes that its the best Bethesda game since Daggerfall and that it has alot of well done features that outweigh the flaws.

rune_74 said:

I think this is possibly the reason I rebel against that group and Vince. Its hypocritical in nature to do that. God help him when he releases his game, people will be ultra critical on him, although I think the NMA stick together pretty good.

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When I read such vicious and passionate comments about a game like Fallout 3, I sometimes start to wonder if I should hate it, too. Is there something wrong with me if I like it? Am I missing something? But of course, one of my core beliefs is how perception can be like night and day for different people. There is no good or bad; there is only the interpretation of perception. When the NMA guys wonder how it is possible that so many people can like "that garbage," that's their world. I live in mine and it's not the same as theirs.

I don't know much about his game, but I think he's trying to make the exact game that people like that enjoy. That is, an RPG with lots of choices and different ways of accomplishing stuff. Maybe he'll succeed, but it's hard to balance something like that and make it a fun game. Still, the NMA guys will applaud it no matter what, simply because of the design philosophy behind it and the niche it has become.

coyote said:

Maybe if you do not care about your reputation as a developer and simply want to have your revenge on people illegally playing around with some software, a few devious and underhanded protection schemes are really called for. If you want to build up trust between you and your customers and intend to sell your software, this is not a good idea, though! This should have been clear from the beginning, but people still do the same mistakes today (not in Fallout 3, though - to the best of my knowledge some slight DVD annoyances are as far as it goes here).

P.S.: Sorry for the many off-topic posts...

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[OT]
Id say the modern DRMs are soft as ever. In the old days you had to dig codewheels and decrypt codewords everytime you run the game. Nowadays all you need at worst is to have the dvd in drive or uninstall the game.

I cant understand what people complain about - I havent had any problems with new DRMs - not even Starforce when I i.e played Beyond Divinity (No my dvd drive didnt explode ).

The only thing I find slightly annoying is the dvd-changing everytime I want to switch a game - but I cope with it. Its not like I play more than one or two games per one session anyways.
[/OT]

But its good that fallout3 sales are topping the charts. We are sure to see sequels and addons in nigh future. Fallout franchise is fully alive again!

Bedwyr said:

Yeah, I know. I just want to give the guy credit for daring to publicly like the game at all on NMA, if not as a Fallout game.

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Do you even read NMA? It is full of people "daring" to publicly admit they like the game, including me.

rune_74 said:

Just because you backpedal later on because you know the ground you are standing on isn't safe doesn't excuse the rest of the drek. Totally agreed with your first post.

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For Frith's sake people, that was a Let's Play article to warm up to real impression pieces. It notes multiple times it's not supposed to be read as a review piece and yet people do so. There was no backpedalling, it was a write-as-he-went piece and thus opinion is bound to go up and down.

NMA's forum is filled with people expressing positive points on Fallout 3, including me - I think it's a good game, as - for that matter - does Vince.

If you really want to look down your nose at a whole community of people, you might want to make sure you actually absorb what they're saying rather than dismissing them out of hand - ironically the same thing you're accusing them of doing.

Thaurin said:

I think it's interesting and educational to witness how someone can be so caught up in their own world as to be completely unable to comprehend any way of thinking other than their own.

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Look, guys, I understand if you don't like NMA, you certainly don't have to, but I expect better from this community than this. The attitude of "NMA" (as if we're some kind of hivemind) has nothing to do with being unable to accept other people's ways of thinking (we're not the Codex, grrrlol). It has to do with dedication to a design school that is - indeed - niche. Very few people on NMA think that niche design should be the only design school in RPGs or is somehow "better" than the FPSRPG design of Fallout, we just think it's a shame Fallout had to be turned from one design school to another - no matter points on how inevitable that was it is still a shame.

I think it's fairly safe to say Fallout 3 does not stick to either the core gameplay design or the main setting expression of Fallout 1. If you want to argue that point on NMA you better bring your big guns. But what you're saying makes it sound like it's a crime to say "I like Fallout 3" or "Fallout 3 is a good game" on NMA, even though our forums are filled with those kinds of posts and nobody is being attacked over that sentiment (unless there's a moderator oversight, but it's been a busy few days), which is also being expressed by more than one veteran or member of staff (Grizzly is running back and forth defending this game).

I would imagine that since NMA is such a horrid community there's enough there to just dislike without making stuff up, which is more-or-less what you're doing. You're free to, don't get me wrong, I think NMA's got beyond really being bothered what other people think (we have to, otherwise we'd have shut down the place ages ago ), but hey, I'm just asking, for the sake of fairness, you might want to consider if your mental image of the community is all correct.

zakhal said:

[OT]
Id say the modern DRMs are soft as ever. In the old days you had to dig codewheels and decrypt codewords everytime you run the game. Nowadays all you need at worst is to have the dvd in drive or uninstall the game.[/OT]

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Personally, I'd prefer it that way,m because it would mean I wouldn't have to think of the publisher running out of replacement discs one day.

I have here an extremely scratchy version of Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds bought by ebay which I just don't dare to play, because I fear I could make even more scratches into it and thus render it unplayable.
And there are no replacement discs available. I've asked. I would've to buy it a second time - for prices going around 20 Euros or even more, due to its rarity.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Personally, I'd prefer it that way,m because it would mean I wouldn't have to think of the publisher running out of replacement discs one day.

I have here an extremely scratchy version of Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds bought by ebay which I just don't dare to play, because I fear I could make even more scratches into it and thus render it unplayable.
And there are no replacement discs available. I've asked. I would've to buy it a second time - for prices going around 20 Euros or even more, due to its rarity.

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I have bought a ton of used dvds from ebay,play.com and amazon and all of them are in good condition (I dont buy those that are bad). The modern dvd drives are so good that they dont scratch dvds - atleast the dvd drives I have owned. Allthough user can still scratch dvds by himself if he is unable to keep them in safe places.

If you look back in the past games had i.e say two dozen 3,5" disks that broke 50 times easier than dvds. Just little dust and the disk is finished. And if just single disk broke it was all gone..thats what happened to my Betrayal at Kondor even though I did keep the disks clean and boxed.

I dont even remember when I last had a faulty cd/dvd disk. It just doesnt happen anymore.

Brother None said:

Do you even read NMA? It is full of people "daring" to publicly admit they like the game, including me.

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Yes, of course you are right. I just go there to read the stuck-up people, because they crack me up. You have those too, alright. Don't make me go and fetch some price quotes from the forums.

I don't dislike NMA personally (can't speak for the others). Like I said, I go there to enjoy myself. I don't have so much a problem with people hating on Fallout 3 because it turned out different from what they wanted it to be. I do know the feeling, though, of when someone rips something you really love a new one with arguments that you entirely don't agree with. It's still their prerogative, but it may be perceived as unfair to the other (which it may of may not be).

I wouldn't say that people who like Fallout 3 are attacked on NMA, but their taste is definitely put into question by some. Well, what can you say. Taste is taste. You can argue Fallout by fact, but still you can never say a feature of the one is absolutely better than the other, because people's views of that will always be different. Still, that's what happens a lot on NMA from what I've read.

I read NMA quite often, even though I don't actually post there. Like most forums, there is a great variety of people - some are incredible sources of information regarding Fallout, others merely whine and get hung up on silly details.

To me, I think fallout 3 totally captures the feel of the original fallouts. In some ways the atmosphere is way more immersive then the first 2, and yes I have played the other two as well as the spinoff games, hell I bought them when they were on the shelf new.

NMA as a whole have people like it as a game....not many who see it as a fallout, its like an easy way out.

How can it feel like the old games? That was ten years ago. There is no way in hell that I can feel the same way about a game that is released today as a game that was released that long ago. The mind plays tricks. Even with numerous replays over the years that feeling doesn't really go away. I mean, really, the amount of joy I had playing Doom on Xbox Live Arcade is really disproportionate compared to the modern shooters that have been released since because the game has a firm place in my nostalgic heart. There are memories attached to it that will never change.

Then there's the difference in time. That is, how computer games were made back then plus what the computer technology allowed back in those days. It can never be the same, even if Bethesda made a modern version of the originals. My mind has seen too many shiny things since then and the way I look at computer games has changed as a result. It takes more to blow me away, because I've been spoiled.

There are just too many factors that make having a similar experience as when playing the first two impossible. But maybe that's just me.

I'm sure that many people will argue fact and will come up with point-by-point comparisons to show that the originals are better. And maybe they have a good point as well, but for these reasons I believe that they will never fully acknowledge or value the other things that Fallout 3 does do right. Admit it, they may, but it will not invoke the same emotional feeling. No one can blame them for that.

But, to be fair, it must be said that I am generalizing, singling out a certain type of Fallout fan. It's human to be prejudgemental (I've just made up a word!).

NMA-bashing is like so 2005

zakhal said:

I have bought a ton of used dvds from ebay,play.com and amazon and all of them are in good condition

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Mine was used. I knew that. But the seller even replied to my question about the condition that they were "very good" (the discs, I mean). He even called himself (as the ebay name "game collector [three-digit number]", translated.

Brothert none you kind of lost it in the thread about the sales of Fallout 3 on NMA,( I am allowed to read it right?)

Yes, I too am ecstatic that a bunch of games will be released that come closest to Fallout in name and little else.

Wait what? Why should I care if a string of post-apocalyptic FPSRPGs comes out called Fallout, other than that I enjoy post-apocalyptic FPSRPGs? The name is meaningless, and the fact that the Fallout name will now be carried on in a meaning it has never had is worth very little to me.

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What about the people who play it and find it to be spiritual successor to the original fallouts?

I'm curious to this meaning it never had as well....

rune_74:

If you have a Fallout-discussion with NMA people please use the NMA forum.
Bashing other forums is not RPGWatch-style.

HiddenX, as a very old member of the legendary Non Flamers Guild