Ultima VII Part I - Retrospective Review @ CRPG Addict

lackblogger · August 20, 2020

rune_74 said:
You can't see the chance for emergent game play? The very first part of Ultima 7 has a murder investigation you have to solve….you can follow people around etc. It really adds to immersion and that's what it is for.

Sure, you won't get straight action kill, loot, kill, but you will get a believable world that makes it a lot more memorable.

Yes, that first little village/town and the murder mystery was great. I think there are large numbers of RPGs where you start of just ambling round towns, getting used to things.

It's when upon exiting that place and you come across another settlement, once again packed with NPCs that one starts to think, Mmm, I think I've had enough of this now, can I have an NPC break for a bit now? No? You're not feeling that at all?

Ok, how about once you leave that second NPC settlement, your next destination is a THIRD NPC settlement, even bigger and more involved than the previous two… Are you fed up of the repetition yet? No? You're still loving just non-stop NPC'ing, into the hundreds of conversations with zero break? Really?

And it's fascinating how there's supposed to be some magic divider here where you either love pure NPC'ing or else you love pure combat'ing as evidence by both your and other people's terminology. As if the only choice is either Virtual-Sims game or Virtual-Diablo game.

And that's the whole point.

U7 just takes one specific aspect of RPGs to an extreme, just as Diablo takes one specific aspect of RPGs to an extreme, both doing it in complete exclusion to everything else an RPG could and should be, and both being praised for doing so and even being put 'above' games that actually try to just be normal RPGs.

That's the sickening part. "If you don't like this kind of 'revolution'/'evolution' then you only care about combat" utter horseshit that people have spread for 30 years for no other reason than as an argumentative stick to defend the fact that U7 is, otherwise, practically unplayably shite.

While this one game did this one thing that might have seemed 'novel' at the time, the amount of expectation it created in the genre for RPGs to be 'a certain way' actually put the genre back decades, just as Diablo does in it's own way.

Because an RPG should be about variety of experience. Every facet of an RPG should be about fostering and encouraging variety - of characters, of encounters, of locations, of objectives, of problems to overcome. U7, like Diablo, just over-does one specific thing to the determent of everything else.

And it's for that reason I get on my high horse, and I do it for any game that does this to the genre. You can normally spot them very quickly, because it's normally these types of games that generate those hardened 'defenders' who, so accustomed are they to experiencing customers who "thought it was quite shit really, don't get what all the fuss is about", that they feel the need to then group-up and elevate every criticism into a "well it's RPGs that need to change" double-down marathon.

What would be really evolutionary is if an RPG just gave the player shit loads of VARIETY. And for all that variety to be not-shit, not just one aspect of it. Maybe if we made that the rallying cry of evolution instead of bizzare side-tracks into other genres then our genre might not be as fucked up as it currently is and we might have had some properly decent games in the last 20 years other than Black Isle and Bioware stuff.

Thankfully, the last 5 years have seen us getting gradually back on track, but I wont hold my breath that the exact same mistakes wont get made again and once again rabbit-hole projectionists start worshipping the 'different' rather than the 'actually good'…

I found U7 as equally tedious as Diablo..

rune_74 · August 20, 2020

lackblogger said:
Yes, that first little village/town and the murder mystery was great. I think there are large numbers of RPGs where you start of just ambling round towns, getting used to things.

It's when upon exiting that place and you come across another settlement, once again packed with NPCs that one starts to think, Mmm, I think I've had enough of this now, can I have an NPC break for a bit now? No? You're not feeling that at all?

Ok, how about once you leave that second NPC settlement, your next destination is a THIRD NPC settlement, even bigger and more involved than the previous two… Are you fed up of the repetition yet? No? You're still loving just non-stop NPC'ing, into the hundreds of conversations with zero break? Really?

And it's fascinating how there's supposed to be some magic divider here where you either love pure NPC'ing or else you love pure combat'ing as evidence by both your and other people's terminology. As if the only choice is either Virtual-Sims game or Virtual-Diablo game.

And that's the whole point.

U7 just takes one specific aspect of RPGs to an extreme, just as Diablo takes one specific aspect of RPGs to an extreme, both doing it in complete exclusion to everything else an RPG could and should be, and both being praised for doing so and even being put 'above' games that actually try to just be normal RPGs.

That's the sickening part. "If you don't like this kind of 'revolution'/'evolution' then you only care about combat" utter horseshit that people have spread for 30 years for no other reason than as an argumentative stick to defend the fact that U7 is, otherwise, practically unplayably shite.

While this one game did this one thing that might have seemed 'novel' at the time, the amount of expectation it created in the genre for RPGs to be 'a certain way' actually put the genre back decades, just as Diablo does in it's own way.

Because an RPG should be about variety of experience. Every facet of an RPG should be about fostering and encouraging variety - of characters, of encounters, of locations, of objectives, of problems to overcome. U7, like Diablo, just over-does one specific thing to the determent of everything else.

And it's for that reason I get on my high horse, and I do it for any game that does this to the genre. You can normally spot them very quickly, because it's normally these types of games that generate those hardened 'defenders' who, so accustomed are they to experiencing customers who "thought it was quite shit really, don't get what all the fuss is about", that they feel the need to then group-up and elevate every criticism into a "well it's RPGs that need to change" double-down marathon.

What would be really evolutionary is if an RPG just gave the player shit loads of VARIETY. And for all that variety to be not-shit, not just one aspect of it. Maybe if we made that the rallying cry of evolution instead of bizzare side-tracks into other genres then our genre might not be as fucked up as it currently is and we might have had some properly decent games in the last 20 years other than Black Isle and Bioware stuff.

Thankfully, the last 5 years have seen us getting gradually back on track, but I wont hold my breath that the exact same mistakes wont get made again and once again rabbit-hole projectionists start worshipping the 'different' rather than the 'actually good'…

I found U7 as equally tedious as Diablo..

You do know that some of us prefer different things....to call us out for exalting in what we like as if we are some cult that is forcing it on you is bizarre....but that is the general level of most of your word walls. It is in the differences of games and the different styles of RPG's that make them fun, it's not for everyone and that's fine, but to say trying these things has ruined the genre is way off base.

lackblogger · August 20, 2020

rune_74 said:
You do know that some of us prefer different things….to call us out for exalting in what we like as if we are some cult that is forcing it on you is bizarre….but that is the general level of most of your word walls. It is in the differences of games and the different styles of RPG's that make them fun, it's not for everyone and that's fine, but to say trying these things has ruined the genre is way off base.

I respond to the words that are presented to me, I replied as I did because every single one of the positive replies do indeed imply that people are acting like a cult forcing this game's oddities upon the wider RPG'ing world, it absolutely oozes from every word.

Would you like some quotes?

bjon045 said:
Ground breaking at the time

JFarrell71 said:
I give Garriott and the Utlima series (from IV on) a lot of credit for taking computer RPGs beyond their fighting heavy, tabletop roots and paving the way for both the simulationist aspects and the more character and narrative driven games that followed in their wake.

Stingray said:
U7P1 still easily the best RPG ever, in terms of its greatness and memorableness at the time of its release.

rune_74 said:
all these companies talking about making an immersive world should see how he did it.

Gwendo said:
It was one of those games that defined RPGs for me, in that time.

GothicGothicness said:
I think the main point of U7 was to make everyone a person, and an RPG is a lot about immersion. This is were modern RPG fails a lot in my opinion

Look at you there, demanding anyone who's promoting immersion in RPGs go play U7 and then just two posts later trying to insinuate you're not trying to force this shit on everyone.

JDR13 · August 20, 2020

Those look like opinions to me. Strange thing is, I read them and didn't feel like anything was being forced upon me.

JFarrell71 · August 20, 2020

If you don't play Ultima VII and immediately crown it as the greatest game of all time, Lackblogger, your eyes will film over and your limbs with atrophy. It's the greatest thing human enterprise has ever delivered unto the world, praise Garriott, and those who do not sing its merits are destined to be covered in darkness and become dust, forgotten forever by the world that birthed them.

There you go.

lackblogger · August 20, 2020

JDR13 said:
Those look like opinions to me. Strange thing is, I read them and didn't feel like anything was being forced upon me.

I didn't say they weren't opinions. Strange thing is, I didn't imply they were forcing anything on JDR13 either.

JDR13 · August 20, 2020

lackblogger · August 21, 2020

Corwin · August 21, 2020

I actually think that Serpent's Isle is a better game!!

JFarrell71 · August 21, 2020

Corwin said:
I actually think that Serpent's Isle is a better game!!

I like it too, but I remember thinking the writing wasn't as good. Very exposition heavy. Every character had something to say about every topic, and a lot of it wasn't much different from what others had said. I'm.. intimately familiar with the dialogue because back then I sometimes used to write it all down, and I did it for that game. :blush:

It was also more adventury in its plot. Which isn't a bad or good thing, of course, but I really dug the more unique tone of The Black Gate.

Corwin · August 21, 2020

I think it might have been the different location which endeared SI to me. I also found BG a trifle too linear, but I still loved it. Both are in my top 5 games though I like to cheat a little and just say U7 (both parts) are one game!!

Wisdom · August 21, 2020

JFarrell71 said:
Every character had something to say about every topic, and a lot of it wasn't much different from what others had said.

Ah... thats why Richard credits himself with inventing social media. There are striking similarities!

Pessimeister · August 21, 2020

Well, it's no coincidence that Richard famously referred to role-playing as being "fundamentally social experiences". This philosphy appears in its most obvious form in the creation of Ultima Online. He was certainly at the forefront in the days of the early MMOs.

I loved Ultima VII and completing it ranks high in my fondest RPG memories. I still have the handkerchief map on my wall from an old 5.25 floppy version. I can understand that it's a game not for everyone though. It should be emphasised that it's not merely simulationist in nature as it has a fantastic and impactful narrative which for me was assisted by the fact that I'd finished all previous games as well. The story of the fellowship also connects with small narrative tid bits in Ultima Underworld II which I also found mysterious and compelling at the time.

I still rank the game quite highly overall and it's pleasing that Larian or Sven in particular, have endeavoured to keep some of that design spirit alive in the two D:OS games. That said, they do have a way to go yet on the dialogue and compelling story front.

pibbuR · August 21, 2020

I have it (together with SI) on second place on my all-time favourite game list. After Planescape: Torment.

a pibbur whose Name is "a pibbur" and whose Job is retired. Bye.

PS. I really liked all the NPC's I could talk to, especially coming back to them again after having gathered more information. DS.

rune_74 · August 21, 2020

lackblogger said:
I didn't say they weren't opinions. Strange thing is, I didn't imply they were forcing anything on JDR13 either.

I mean seriously, are you here just to argue? You said in your post where you qouted everyone were cult like and trying to force this shit on people.

Then you say you never said they were not opinions...like wtf?

You offered nothing sir, you get nothing.

lackblogger · August 21, 2020

You're pulling me back in yet again because you want to keep digging heh?

rune_74 said:
I mean seriously, are you here just to argue?

Oh look, there's those word choices again. I believe it's called a forum, where people exchange ideas. Converse. Communicate. Debate.

But, of course, a game you like but the other person doesn't? Of course, you use the word argue.

Which, of course, takes two…

And, of course, you're not even the person I first responded to, but, of course, it's me that's the one who's 'just looking for an argument' by your amazing sense of self

rune_74 said:
You said in your post where you qouted everyone were cult like and trying to force this shit on people.

Then you say you never said they were not opinions…like wtf?

It seems a basic understanding of language is as alien to you as a basic understanding of forums. Perhaps you could share with everyone why you think opinions are incapable of being forced upon people?

rune_74 said:
You offered nothing sir, you get nothing.

To be honest, it's you who is spending most of your time discussing the person instead of the game, the classic sign that you're position is, at best, tenuous.

I guess once you've said how much you enjoyed talking to NPCs there's not actually much left to say, right? Might as well just start pretending the person you keep poking is actually the poker, right?

rune_74 · August 21, 2020

lackblogger said:
You're pulling me back in yet again because you want to keep digging heh?

Oh look, there's those word choices again. I believe it's called a forum, where people exchange ideas. Converse. Communicate. Debate.

But, of course, a game you like but the other person doesn't? Of course, you use the word argue.

Which, of course, takes two…

And, of course, you're not even the person I first responded to, but, of course, it's me that's the one who's 'just looking for an argument' by your amazing sense of self

It seems a basic understanding of language is as alien to you as a basic understanding of forums. Perhaps you could share with everyone why you think opinions are incapable of being forced upon people?

To be honest, it's you who is spending most of your time discussing the person instead of the game, the classic sign that you're position is, at best, tenuous.

I guess once you've said how much you enjoyed talking to NPCs there's not actually much left to say, right? Might as well just start pretending the person you keep poking is actually the poker, right?

Yawn, what a bunch of BS.

lackblogger · August 21, 2020

rune_74 said:
Yawn, what a bunch of BS.

What an amazing forum post...

rune_74 · August 21, 2020

lackblogger said:
What an amazing forum post…

Thanks

Gwendo · August 24, 2020

lackblogger said:
I'm still at a loss as to what makes such details amazing. It's all just simulation stuff. Nothing wrong with simulation stuff, but I fail to see how it makes an RPG better for anyone other than simulation fans.

I really, honestly, could barely care less what an NPC does in the time when I'm not around. Adventure games do that kind of thing a lot, but for those it usually relates to the puzzle complexity rather than immersion.

For me, it's about immersion. It makes the place and the people more believable, relatable, intriguing. It feels less one dimensional and worthier to find out about. Also, it allows emergent gameplay.

I'm pretty sure combat and loot was an important factor prior to U7, durig the time of U7, and immediately after U7, and beyond. Hmm, how on earth did you get so involved in RPGs if you are so repelled by combat?

I was not and I'm not repelled by combat. I was only referring to U7's combat.
And I can't remember any other game, in my experience, that I liked in spite of the combat. Lot's of promising RPGs and JRPGs that I've gave up a few hours in because I couldn't enjoy the combat. Combat is so central in most RPGs nowadays, that If you don't like it, you won't enjoy the game at all. Ultima 7 was an anomaly for me. I really enjoyed it and couldn't care less about its subpar combat.

Ultima VII Part I - Retrospective Review @ CRPG Addict

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