Finished Deus Ex: HR - Thoughts.

DArtagnan · August 29, 2011

Finished it on hardest difficulty. I would have managed 100% non-lethal, except I kinda got sick of being that careful towards the end.

GOTY so far, definitely. I think it exceeds the first game for me, though it's not without flaws:

I think it suffers a bit due to its art direction and general visual aesthetic. The look is simply too clean and sterile for my tastes. Even when the levels are "different" - they retain that kind of look and as such the atmosphere doesn't quite reach the desired level of immersion. It's like the whole world is made of cardboard, plastic, and glass. It just lacks…. mass. NPCs feel the same way. They seem to be made of something other than flesh and bone.

For the stealth approach, there's too much experience to be had. I could have maxed out everything had I bothered to be 100% towards the end. I think the absolute max should probably be around 2/3 augmentations at the very end. Pretty big design flaw, if you ask me.

The energy cell system is not very good, in my opinion. Too many powers rely on having a full cell - and since you only regenerate the first cell, you end up not wanting to go beyond 1 power cell lest you expend resources for no reason. They should have just used a single larger energy bar ala Deus Ex - and then let it regenerate very slowly, or something like that. Some powers could stand to be free, like walking silently and looking through walls. The "realism" of needing energy doesn't outweigh the inconvenience of constantly activating them and reserving a cell for the vital take-down power.

The story had some pretty good points and ideas, but the characters weren't engaging. They lacked emotional punch and underpinning - and the whole thing came off as somewhat too distant and "functional". The death of the pilot should have been a very moving moment, but it did absolutely nothing for me.

It was great with all those terminals to hack, but the e-mails were somewhat dry and uninteresting. One of the reasons Bioshock/System Shock work so well in this regard, is because of the voice acting I suppose, which was out of the question for this. But I still think they could have made the entries more interesting and engaging. The first stuff in the Sarif building with the smuggling operation was very good. There should have been more of that kind of thing.

The game needed a third hub. The last third of the game should have happened in a third city - and I think it should have been possible to backtrack to the other hubs at will. Either that, or it should just have been one huge single city instead. I didn't like getting attached to Detroit and then having to abandon my apartment, and Hengsha lacked a home to place items. They went really far with the open world stuff, and they really should have gone that last step.

Which brings me to the lack of a storage closet. The game is in DESPERATE need of a universal storage closet.

Those are my primary complaints. It may sound negative, but the positives FAR outweigh them. The basic gameplay is incredibly satisfying and well-executed. I can't say enough good stuff about the hacking system, for instance - which is by far the best implementation of a mini-game I've seen. The shooting mechanics worked very well for this type of game, and the enemy AI was a constant challenge on max difficulty level as a stealther. While the story wasn't emotionally engaging, it was definitely mentally stimulating. Plenty of meat on it - and it kept me interested towards the end.

I also think the multiple endings made good sense, and I liked the final battle - which reminded me of the System Shock 2 boss. I chose the Taggart ending, by the way.

stealth · August 29, 2011

That was quick. I've only played the tutorial and parts of the first mission and so far like it. How long was it? I think I've read that it would take around 20 hours to complete.

DArtagnan · August 29, 2011

stealth said:
That was quick. I've only played the tutorial and parts of the first mission and so far like it. How long was it? I think I've read that it would take around 20 hours to complete.

Around 35-40 hours. I was VERY thorough for ~80% of the game, but as the end came nearer, it was obvious that I wouldn't really need the extra XP and I just wanted it to be over at that point. It takes its toll to play 100% stealthy on "Deus Ex" difficulty

If you "run and gun" - then 20 hours is probably about right.

I think you might squeeze out 50 hours, if you go totally anal with stealth/hacking/non-lethal.

There's plenty of content in the game, and I think it's actually bigger than the first Deus Ex.

stealth · August 30, 2011

Usually I'm not patient enough to stick with the stealth approach. I'm trying to currently but if the game is that long it will be a challenge

Maylander · August 30, 2011

The Witcher 2 is GOTY by a mile for me, at least for now, but it's interesting to see that people have such high thoughts on DX.

Good read overall. Oh, and don't mind the spoiler tag folks - the majority of the content within it is not related to the story of the game. Only a few bits and pieces.

stealth said:
Usually I'm not patient enough to stick with the stealth approach. I'm trying to currently but if the game is that long it will be a challenge

Same, I lack the patience. It's why I never really enjoyed the DX, Thief, M&M: Dark Messiah, etc. I rarely play stealth characters in general, no matter the game.

DArtagnan · August 30, 2011

Maylander said:
The Witcher 2 is GOTY by a mile for me, at least for now, but it's interesting to see that people have such high thoughts on DX.

Witcher 2 was very, very good - but unfortunately it didn't hold up for me after the first act. It's definitely ahead in the story department and it remains the best looking game I've seen - but I'm just too much in love with the Deus Ex gameplay

That said, Witcher 2 is my number 2 candidate. Maybe Skyrim will top them?

Tilean · August 31, 2011

I just finished it, what follows is of course very spoiler-heavy (I intend to be much more specific about story things than DArtagnan).

I am mainly going to voice my disagreement about some of the OP's opinions.

I like the art design, but that is of course a very subjective thing. I think they found a very good balance between a realistic and a stylized "gritty" art style, with the result being very unique. I also feel that they have "transcended" the graphical limitations of the engine and created something that will retain its unique "feel" even after the engine will look dated (although admittedly, it already does look old to some people).

I also disagree with the assessment that the experience balance is flawed. In fact I think it is perfect. While it is true that you get more experience for the stealth approach, it is also true that you simply don't need all the various stealth augmentations if you are just going to shoot your way through. I also doubt that you could have gotten 100% of the augmentations, I finished it with the stealth approach and maybe got about 80-85% of the augmentations. Although I often bypassed various guards and thus missed some opportunities to gain extra experience, I did all the sidequests, hacked almost every terminal with every experience datacores in it, and also backtracked occasionally to get the "Travellers" or "Pathfinders" bonus. But let's do the math just for the sake of the argument: Let's say I "missed" 500 guards (which is probably too high a number), that would make 25000 experience, which translates to 5 praxis points. That would have been close, but I might still miss one or two upgrades for the augmentations. But to take these 500 guards out would have been a tremendous undertaking. It could be that there is just enough experience to get every augmentation, but you would have to try really, really hard to achieve this and I think virtually nobody would do this on their first playthrough.

I somewhat disagree with the sentiment that the characters should have been more engaging. I think they worked just fine and to be honest the original's characters were for the most part not that engaging either, with the possible exception of Paul, most other characters in Deus Ex just didn't have enough "screen time" to be developed more and especially in the later part of the game most characters lost a lot of their importance, which doesn't happen in Human Revolution to the same extent.

Actually I think Human Revolution focuses too much on its comparably smaller cast of characters, and that is ultimately a flaw. Sarif and Taggart are introduced early on, and neither of them really feel that powerful or important. There are also not enough layers of conspiracy for me, I don't know if I have missed something but I had always suspected that beside the "DNA abuse thing" there would be another revelation concerning a hidden plot by Sarif, but of course there wasn't and I was accordingly disappointed.

And Zhao is possibly one of the worst villains in video game history. I don't understand how that scene in the Tai Yong Medical could have survived quality control. "Men always underestimate women" should become Human Revolution's tagline.

I agree with most other things though, especially the gameplay part. Honestly, actual gameplay was never really good in the Deus Ex "series", but Human Revolution finally rectifies that.

My main problem is with the story, of which there is just too little. According to Steam I have logged 10 hours more into Human Revolution than Deus Ex, yet I still feel that I have experienced almost twice as much in the original game. But I think with the hidden credits dialog, the sequel is all but announced. So maybe I still get to fill my need for more conspiracies.

The original game was its creators' magnum opus. Human Revolution is worthy of the Deus Ex name, but it is recognizably a commercial product targeted at the mass market. And sadly this shows in the story department.

DArtagnan · August 31, 2011

Tilean said:
I also disagree with the assessment that the experience balance is flawed. In fact I think it is perfect. While it is true that you get more experience for the stealth approach, it is also true that you simply don't need all the various stealth augmentations if you are just going to shoot your way through. I also doubt that you could have gotten 100% of the augmentations, I finished it with the stealth approach and maybe got about 80-85% of the augmentations. Although I often bypassed various guards and thus missed some opportunities to gain extra experience, I did all the sidequests, hacked almost every terminal with every experience datacores in it, and also backtracked occasionally to get the "Travellers" or "Pathfinders" bonus. But let's do the math just for the sake of the argument: Let's say I "missed" 500 guards (which is probably too high a number), that would make 25000 experience, which translates to 5 praxis points. That would have been close, but I might still miss one or two upgrades for the augmentations. But to take these 500 guards out would have been a tremendous undertaking. It could be that there is just enough experience to get every augmentation, but you would have to try really, really hard to achieve this and I think virtually nobody would do this on their first playthrough.

Well, I admit I exaggerated somewhat when I said I could have easily done it, but if it's not doable - I'd be very surprised.

Especially if you take out the absolutely useless augs, like basically the entire "Stealth Enhancer" tree and the "Fortify" hacking tree.

But, yeah, it does take some effort. I almost exclusively took out guards with take-down, for instance, which will grant 50 XP. If you use double take-down, you get a bonus on top of that. I took out ALL guards for most of the game, until I got tired of the non-lethal overly pedantic playstyle. So, that's a nice portion of points right there.

Then you need to get "Ghost" and "Smooth Operator" for all missions, and you should naturally hack everything and NOT open doors from the inside, as it will unlock them. There are many little ways to optimise which will yield significant extra XP - and I was very meticulous and thorough for most of the game. I had around 38 out of 51 augs towards the end of the game, and I'd skipped at least two side missions, and semi-rushed 4-5 levels. On top of that, I haven't explored Hengsha thoroughly and I'm sure there are a few praxis kits I've missed due to exploration. I may be wrong, but going by the rest of the game - it seems very reasonable to assume you can max everything if you invest in it. Perhaps not easily, as I said, but I think it's possible. The "easy" part is applicable in terms of the actually useful augs. I'm sure there are people out there arguing that Stealth Enhancer and Fortify augs are useful - but I most definitely can't see it.

I'm not saying the XP balance should be changed, as much as they entire augmentation system. Even if you can't max out every single augmentation, you can MOST certainly max out ALL the "good" ones even without being all that thorough. Meaning, you can try all playstyles in the same playthrough - which is a huge no-no in a game like this. That's just my opinion, of course.

Personally, I think they should have kept the original augmentation system, meaning you had to EXCLUSIVELY choose which ones to focus on - and they should have let the XP be for upgrades only, not the actual augmentations. That way, they could ensure replayability and the proper rewards. There are, of course, a million other ways to handle this - and I simply don't think they did it in a good way. Coupled with a significant amount of near useless augmentations and a stupid energy system, we're talking some pretty serious design omissions. But that's pretty standard, even in the best games.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

Dhruin · August 31, 2011

Only just finished the first boss, so I have a long way to go. That said, that boss was every bit as bad as some of the ones in Alpha Protocol, which I recall was a tipping point for you.

It's still a great game (so far) but I'm surprised you didn't comment on that.

DArtagnan · August 31, 2011

Dhruin said:
Only just finished the first boss, so I have a long way to go. That said, that boss was every bit as bad as some of the ones in Alpha Protocol, which I recall was a tipping point for you.

It's still a great game (so far) but I'm surprised you didn't comment on that.

No, the boss fights in themselves weren't the tipping point for me in AP. It was that specific "druggie rockstar" fight that tipped it for me. I can't remember specifically, but there was another fight that also pissed me off, but it was definitely that drug guy that made me quit the game.

That's because the normal rules of the game stopped applying totally, and my "headshot master" guy was useless. The guy was basically immortal unless you did what was in the "design script". That's the kind of fight I hate. Of course, it does count a lot that I didn't much like the game overall - and I absolutely hated the "humor" and fabricated/obtuse dialogue. That kind of thing doesn't make your disposition any brighter for detrimental aspects.

I'm none too fond of boss fights, that's true - and I didn't like them in Deus Ex HR either. But since I could use my powers with great efficiency in them, I didn't mind them as much. It also helps a bit that I'm fighting super-human guys, rather than normal human beings. AP had no such excuse - and it was especially jarring in that game, seeing as how it went out of its way to establish a realistic spy-themed tone. At least, that's how I perceived it.

I don't want to spoil the fights for you, but they are all very easy and your powers are vital to taking them down. That's exactly how a boss fight should be, if they MUST have them in there. It still doesn't make any sense that they can survive so many shots, even if they are heavily augmented - but my approach and build helped a lot.

But no, they didn't bother me all that much - mostly because none of them required me to figure out a stupid puzzle or something. So, I'm left with the unrealistic nature of boss fights, which - while still annoying - doesn't ruin the game for me or anything.

I've read about people having trouble with the fights, and I suppose if I'd had that experience - I might have been more annoyed with them. I think I reloaded a total of 3-4 times for all boss fights combined.

With all that said, I think it's a completely idiotic "requirement" that developers somehow feel they must adhere to. I'd much rather they worked on a couple of extra levels, than stupid staged fights like that.

JDR13 · August 31, 2011

@Dhruin - What was so bad about the first boss? The only issue I had was that your only course of action was to kill him, which isn't really a big deal imo since it fit with the circumstances.

If you're referring to the battle itself, I found it challenging, but not hard, using normal tactics. There are ways to make it pathetically easy though.

SirJames · August 31, 2011

I'm playing on Deus Ex difficulty too and I'll tell ya... You think sneaking around takes its toll? Run and gun pretty much equals 'hiding in an airvent with a shotgun' since you can't even live through 2 shots. Its really no harder when you're sneaking, its only when they're hostile the difficulty kicks in.

I'm not that far in, but I've killed everyone so far with the exceptions of letting the Zekes dude go and then not killing him after he gave me more info and not killing any police when I was sneaking around in their station.

DArtagnan · August 31, 2011

SirJames said:
I'm playing on Deus Ex difficulty too and I'll tell ya… You think sneaking around takes its toll? Run and gun pretty much equals 'hiding in an airvent with a shotgun' since you can't even live through 2 shots. Its really no harder when you're sneaking, its only when they're hostile the difficulty kicks in.

I'm not that far in, but I've killed everyone so far with the exceptions of letting the Zekes dude go and then not killing him after he gave me more info and not killing any police when I was sneaking around in their station.

I didn't mean take its toll as in particularly difficult. It just requires a LOT of patience to play it like I did, and since I'm a very impatient sort of person - it was really quite taxing. I just like roleplaying people who don't kill, and I'm a min-max'er in a big way, so I have to optimise most things to get my pleasure

About the "run and gun" approach, I don't know what to say. I've tried that for a few levels later on - and I found it to be very easy. Maybe it's harder in the beginning? I'm not sure.

Of course, when I'm "running and gunning" - it's not exactly Rambo style. More like a combination of stealth and force. I don't think the game is meant to be played as a straight up Doom-type shooter at all.

Dhruin · August 31, 2011

DArtagnan said:
That's because the normal rules of the game stopped applying totally, and my "headshot master" guy was useless. The guy was basically immortal unless you did what was in the "design script". That's the kind of fight I hate. Of course, it does count a lot that I didn't much like the game overall - and I absolutely hated the "humor" and fabricated/obtuse dialogue. That kind of thing doesn't make your disposition any brighter for detrimental aspects.

I'm none too fond of boss fights, that's true - and I didn't like them in Deus Ex HR either. But since I could use my powers with great efficiency in them, I didn't mind them as much. It also helps a bit that I'm fighting super-human guys, rather than normal human beings. AP had no such excuse - and it was especially jarring in that game, seeing as how it went out of its way to establish a realistic spy-themed tone. At least, that's how I perceived it.

I don't want to spoil the fights for you, but they are all very easy and your powers are vital to taking them down. That's exactly how a boss fight should be, if they MUST have them in there. It still doesn't make any sense that they can survive so many shots, even if they are heavily augmented - but my approach and build helped a lot.

If you didn't like AP, you didn't like it - which is fair enough. I'm not seeing that much difference between the boss fights from where I'm sitting. Brayko had an "excuse" in AP - he was on drugs and there were actually several ways of completing the fight, so the script wasn't that exacting. That said, I do understand your point of view.

But I'm not seeing DXHR as much better at this point (admittedly, I ran out of playing time and patience today, so I put it aside). I have stealthed everything so far and not fired a single shot. I do have a tranq gun that he doesn't respond to but I don't have bigger firepower. It's seems obvious you need to use the [objects] - I get that - but it is a jarring change of gameplay rules. It certainly doesn't benefit from my powers (at least, not that I'm seeing). Being able to see through walls or tag and track NPCs doesn't help with a forced cutscene and combat.

JDR13 said:
@Dhruin - What was so bad about the first boss? The only issue I had was that your only course of action was to kill him, which isn't really a big deal imo since it fit with the circumstances.

If you're referring to the battle itself, I found it challenging, but not hard, using normal tactics. There are ways to make it pathetically easy though.

See above. The ease isn't the point - the game encourages me to play a variety of ways (even asking whether I intend to take a no-kill approach) and then snatches it away. The "circumstances" are forced - they could have provided the chance (even a very hard one) to stealth in but a cutscene breaks all that.

It's not an uncommon problem - Vampire: Bloodlines, AP etc - but DXHR is so good otherwise, it makes this failing all the stronger to me.

Perhaps I'll change my mind when I have time to go back to it.

DArtagnan · August 31, 2011

Dhruin said:
It certainly doesn't benefit from my powers (at least, not that I'm seeing). Being able to see through walls or tag and track NPCs doesn't help with a forced cutscene and combat.

You can actually just cloak and kill the first boss with a handful of headshots. He won't be able to see you - so you just sidestep a bit, which is what I meant by powers working during boss fights.

There are two fights later in the game where see through walls becomes VERY handy, and the cloaking ability remains very powerful during these fights.

I accept that you're not seeing much difference, but that's just where we differ. I see a LOT of difference between how the two games handle boss fights, but we can certainly agree that they don't add anything positive to either game.

Dhruin · August 31, 2011

Agreed.

I don't have cloak, by the way.

Maylander · August 31, 2011

Brayko simply uses an ability that makes him immune to damage for a short amount of time. Beyond that, all regular skills apply just like they would every other fight.

Such abilities are hardly unheard of in RPGs, ranging from Divine Shield in World of Warcraft to Stoneskin in D&D.

JDR13 · August 31, 2011

You can still beat that first boss easily without cloak. I beat him on my first attempt using nothing but the stun gun.

Assuming you have a stun gun and plenty of ammo.. once you manage to get behind him, the fight is over. Just hit him in the back of the head and he'll be stunnned just long enough for you to reload and hit him again.

DArtagnan · August 31, 2011

Maylander said:
Brayko simply uses an ability that makes him immune to damage for a short amount of time. Beyond that, all regular skills apply just like they would every other fight.

Such abilities are hardly unheard of in RPGs, ranging from Divine Shield in World of Warcraft to Stoneskin in D&D.

I would never complain about such immunity if it made any kind of sense in the context of the game.

It completely ruined the sensation of it being a semi-realistic spy game. I most certainly didn't expect magical powers from a human being.

But it doesn't matter now. AP is history as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad so many people enjoyed it despite what I consider glaring flaws.

azarhal · September 3, 2011

Finished! After 33-34 hours according to Steam. I don't let the game run while I'm not playing so it should be pretty accurate and it would include the reloading (plenty of that).

I also played mostly stealth + none-lethal (mostly takedowns). Played on normal, but I'm kind of an impatient player, so I kind of got seen often and reloaded. Next playthrough, I will be using a lethal weapons and will be making different decisions.

I hated the 3 boss fights (I don't call the last one a boss fight…), mostly because the "rules" are different and you don't really care about the guys facing you. Although, they are short and far apart, so they don't damage the game gameplay that much. I had the most trouble with #2. Those characters are well presented in Icarus Effect (DX:HR based novel, really good), too bad they didn't use some of the info in the book for the game.

As for the NPCs. I liked Malik and Prickchard. I wanted to punch every other characters though. And I did punch some of them. OK, I wanted to punch Malik and Prickchard at some point too. I think that Malik had the best side quest as well…

I saved Malik too, that's the first time I used a lethal weapon. She showed up later to save the scientist as well.

I really liked the different "endings" and the credits.

The game might be a bit too serious and lacked sarcasm/joking present in the 1st DX game.

I'm a bit annoyed I didn't get to punch Zhao in the face or at least a slap. She was as stupid as Cindy the receptionist...

I kind of agree with DArtagnan about the lack of 3rd hub. I'm sad they couldn't finish Montréal.

Best game I played this year so far too.

Finished Deus Ex: HR - Thoughts.

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