Good rpgs out there?

Hello everyone. I'm looking for a good rpg, preferably one with elements of exploration and "world immersion" ala Morrowind or Gothic 2. Basically I want a game that pulls you in with the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting, where combat and character development are fun but not the sole source of enjoyment. I don't care how old the game is or how dated the graphics are.

Any suggestions?

Sorry if this post seems terse and demanding, but it's late, and I'm tired. Rest assured that I'd greatly appreciate any suggestions you send my way.

Thanks!

I'm assuming you've already played Gothic 3? What about Two Worlds?

he was asking for good ones?

Element of exploration and world immersion aren't a specific feature of full 3D games. It's a little strange you link both when you add it doesn't matter how dated the graphics are.

Let me think, well I'm not sure what to suggest you, "depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting" seems so big that I wonder if any CRPG worth this description but G2+NOTR:

• The Witcher is a good candidate but won't match well "elements of exploration".
• Or perhaps Ultima 7 which was clearly a source of inspiration of Gothic for some parts of its design. But well it's not the same level of depth than in G2+NOTR.
• I have played only a part of its beginning but it could have quite a depth and a good exploration element, it's Prelude To Darkness. At least it worth a try despite the dated graphics.
• For the world exploration I have few that are unmatched, Realmz scenario: Sword Lands Trilogy and Avernum 1. Both with quite dated graphics. For none you'll get the same level of dialogs than in G2+NOTR. But Sword Lands Trilogy has a quite fascinating world setup and care of details plus a much better writing than G2 and most CRPG. If you don't care play the whole trilogy, starts with the second in the series, it's well written so you can start here and if the first in the trilogy is good, the second is amazing.
• Fallout, after all, this one match your wish.
• Also Divine Divinity has a large part that fits quite well your description. Alas its beginning includes a too long dungeon that discouraged many players, and the third part hasn't the same quality, plus many dungeons tend to be too long but the world under the sun is quite great during the whole mid game.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
he was asking for good ones?

Lol, good point, G3 is a crap! For Two Worlds I recently bought its special edition due to comments in this forum and despite my high skepticism, so it better be good or there will be some retaliation.

EDIT: Well I have to admit I was also quite skeptic about King's Bounty The Legend and now I'm quite happy to have follow the forum comments.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I'm assuming you've already played Gothic 3? What about Two Worlds?

But he said "I want a game that pulls you in with the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting, where combat and character development are fun but not the sole source of enjoyment". - Gothic 3 and Two World are about running around and killing, at least in 90% of the game.

Dogar, you probably won't find any sandbox game where combat isn't most important thing because it's easy to fill the big world with enemies and it's hard to to the same with dialogues, deep characters etc. You have to look for sandbox games or games with storyline/characters/world.

The only exception I can think of is Fallout and Fallout 2. They have good atmosphere, setting and design. But do not play Fallout 3 - this game has nothing in common with FO1 and FO2.

I would also play (but these are not sandbox games):
- Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines (don't mistake it with VtM Redemption - these games are not even similiar) [great characters and very good dialogues, interesting setting]
- Planescape Torment [the best storyline and great characters]
- The Witcher [in general very good, especially characters and dialogues]
- Mask of the Betrayer (expansion to NWN2) [good storyline and some interesting characters]

EDIT:
You're writting too fast!

If I can put my salt with a bit of negative comments, I'd say that this list is quite good but I don't feel at all that Mask of the Betrayer match well the description. It's a great CRPG but I won't be amazed by its "elements of exploration" and "depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting".

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
he was asking for good ones?

Originally Posted by Dasale
Lol, good point, G3 is a crap! For Two Worlds I recently bought its special edition due to comments in this forum and despite my high skepticism, so it better be good or there will be some retaliation.

You both are excused, he wants an "intelligent" opinion.

Originally Posted by Konjad
But he said "I want a game that pulls you in with the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting, where combat and character development are fun but not the sole source of enjoyment". - Gothic 3 and Two World are about running around and killing, at least in 90% of the game.

Did you read his entire post? He gives Gothic 2 and Morrowind as examples of games he enjoyed, he obviously wants to "explore".
Gothic 3 does an excellent job of pulling you into its world, and it's an explorer's dream. I really don't think he's looking for isometric turn-based crpgs, or one that's tightly driven by a linear storyline.

Originally Posted by Dasale
If I can put my salt with a bit of negative comments, I'd say that this list is quite good but I don't feel at all that Mask of the Betrayer match well the description. It's a great CRPG but I won't be amazed by its "elements of exploration" and "depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting".

yep, that's why i wrote it has a nice story and interesting characters but it's not a sandbox game. i think what you are searching you can find only in first and second fallout, so try it

Originally Posted by JDR13
Did you read his entire post? He gives Gothic 2 and Morrowind as examples of games he enjoyed, he obviously wants to "explore".
Gothic 3 does an excellent job of pulling you into its world, and it's an explorer's dream. I really don't think he's looking for isometric turn-based crpgs, or one that's tightly driven by a linear storyline.

G3 is far to have "the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting" that has G2+NOTR, there even a huge difference or an insult to G2+NOTR to pretend it. From this point of view I would suggest more G1 except that almost all people that played G2+NotR first didn't succeed enjoy as much G1.

Originally Posted by Konjad
yep, that's why i wrote it has a nice story and interesting characters but it's not a sandbox game. i think what you are searching you can find only in first and second fallout, so try it

Yes Fallout 1 could be the best suggestion. For Fallout 2 I'm more shared, for me it is far to have the same magical appeal of Fallout 1, even if objectively it should match the criteria.

Originally Posted by Dasale
G3 is far to have "the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting" that has G2+NOTR, there even a huge difference or an insult to G2+NOTR to pretend it. From this point of view I would suggest more G1 except that almost all people that played G2+NotR first didn't succeed enjoy as much G1.

For the original poster: Dasale has spent an inordinate amount of time trashing G3 on the forums here; look up some of his postings on this forum for yourself. I'd suggest you take his opinion of the game with a pretty big grain of salt.

As someone who also enjoyed G2, I find G3 with the CP1.7, alternative balancing, and alternative AI to be very much in the same idiom. Bigger and broader, perhaps not quite as deep; however, if you liked the original Gothics, the chances are you'll also like G3 1.7. As far as I can tell, most people do; Dasale's opinion appears to represent a small (if vocal) minority.

(G3 as it was originally released was a travesty, but it really has come a long way. Personally, I'd say that if G2 was a 9/10, G3/1.7 is a strong 8/10. )

Since when a hype is a majority? Let some time goes after 1.7 release and we will see.

Anyway 1.7 fix nothing related to "the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting" which is the only point I was looking at, now I'd be curious you pretend G3 reach roughly closely the quality level of G2+NOTR on this point.

Well it's true that the majority seems to find some stuff fine like an unknown human character free to roam in orcs towns, and I won't mention all other story weakness and hard to believe points of G3 that strangely seems quite unseen by fans. But for the world depth, I'm not alone to think that G3 is quite far from G2+NOTR.

EDIT: And again, according to the original post wishes, G1 fits much better the request than G3 does.

EDIT2: To G3 blind fans, some more example of how G3 is weird from believable point of view and "the depth of its world design/lore/characters/setting".

• In G2+NOTR when there are enemy factions they are quite far from each other, when G3 is full of example with enemy factions quite close and the story pretend one is hidden from the other. For example, the rebel camp just close to an enemy patrol and worse, the rebels cut trees, .
• In G2+NotR a NPC requests you do a hunt and then he learns you the skill to do it. In G3 a stupid NPC request you the same thing despite you haven't the skill. if this NPC is totally stupid the story doesn't show it at all, just another G3 crap, I know the solution is to steal the stuff not hunt.
• In G3 a slave escape and he is is just close to the small town, lol, nothing as weird in G2+NoTR.
• Orcs have collected human weapons and some quest require you to get some. So you just go and pick the weapons, clearly seen by the Orcs and they say nothing, LOL you won't find such crap in G2+NOTR.
• In G2+NOTR, dragons are one of the rare well done dragons in CRPG, in G3 it's a non impressive ugly big lizard, so ridiculous.
• And I have many more, G3 is full of ugly story approximation that you won't see at all in G2+NOTR.
• Not to mention to credit of the depth that quite many times you really have multiple options to do something in G2+NoTR when in G3 it's almost always only the stupid, kill or not choice when there is any.
• Also not too mention that G2+NOTR has a much better story density, deeper dialogs, more interactions, more story stuff.

It's quite a pain that some blind fans put G3 roughly at same level than G2+NOTR, 1.7 or not

Originally Posted by Dasale
It's quite a pain that some blind fans put G3 roughly at same level than G2+NOTR, 1.7 or not

Keep ranting, I'm sure we'll eventually see the light.

And thanks for providing a sample for the OP, so he doesn't have to bother hunting through your posts.

Daggerfall perhaps?

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Keep ranting, I'm sure we'll eventually see the light.

And thanks for providing a sample for the OP, so he doesn't have to bother hunting through your posts.

I don't care of you why you don't start do the same for me? Just ignore me and thanks, keep applaud G3, that's so ridiculous, your choice.

And I quote you don't have a single valid argument but only a poor whining against me, not a surprise.

Are you still trolling around with G3? Come on Dasale you already said and I quote:

Originally Posted by Dasale
Too much to read, G3 was a crap, G3 1.17 is still a crap despite all the fixes. I don't care.

PJ already went into great detail with you on G3 and you said "Too much to read, I don't care."

Just give it a rest already. We know you don't like G3..ok ok ok we get it. Can we go back to the topic at hand now?

I'd recommend The Witcher, though the exploration isn't as open as some it has a lot of the same grittiness and interesting NPC's as Gothic (or at least I thought so.) If you don't mind old style graphics, Eschalon is very focused on exploration, though it gets kind of linear towards the end.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys! By the way, in mentioning Morrowind and G2 I wasn't implying that I prefer 3d world games, those were just two games that popped into my head. Planescape is another good example, even if the exploration is more contained and focused.

Mind as well add my opinion to this whole G3 mess. I wasn't too fond of G3, but I still really enjoyed exploring the vastly different towns and locales. It was fun to get a feel of places like Bakaresh, the Nordmar camps and the rebel hideouts. Sure, it wasn't very deep when you really explored those places, but it was still pretty cool when you first discovered them and poked around.

edit: Also, it was *really* cool when I first entered Varant by swimming and the music changed to that ominous Hashishin theme as the desert began to sprawl out ahead of me.