DA:O player review that will make us smile

Thanks for the follow-up. There was an important missing follow-up:

It is sometimes feasible to run away (usually in larger more open areas) if you stealth or have disabled the enemies. However what Chris said still applies because if you left a fallen comrade near the enemy forces you will be still be in combat (because as long as one of your party is perceiving an enemy you will still be considered "in combat").

Edited By Craig Graff on 10/01/09 15:21

I don't have issue with "no leaving party member behind" as that is fairly standard. But sounds like you may be able to do a full retreat if team is together. I just dislike the idea that if you get into a situation to big then it is reload the game. I think retreating from overwhelming forces is far more RP than reloading a game. Being followed also makes sense but then so does being able to out-run the enemy if the team is together.

As for

I do see the problem, and a big problem. Basically, you can trash this whole dumb system by exploring all possible available areas first and then engage in trivial combat throughout the game.

I hardly see that as a problem. Sure if someone wants to meta-game and circumvent the system, but that's their own fault. Its the same thing with being able to issue console commands in a game to add levels, gold or god mode. That breaks it to.

It works fine if you use it as intended instead of trying to purposely circumvent it. Sounds similar to the Fallout 3 system only more sophisticated.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark


I don't have issue with "no leaving party member behind" as that is fairly standard. But sounds like you may be able to do a full retreat if team is together. I just dislike the idea that if you get into a situation to big then it is reload the game. I think retreating from overwhelming forces is far more RP than reloading a game. Being followed also makes sense but then so does being able to out-run the enemy if the team is together.

Sure, if your entire party is composed only by rogues and if they all somehow succeed stealth checks, yeah.
Or.. if somehow all monsters manage to fail a *long*-duration stun spell saving throw.

RP is not something objective nor is RP the driving force number one for all players playing such games.

I hardly see that as a problem. Sure if someone wants to meta-game and circumvent the system, but that's their own fault. Its the same thing with being able to issue console commands in a game to add levels, gold or god mode. That breaks it to.

It works fine if you use it as intended instead of trying to purposely circumvent it. Sounds similar to the Fallout 3 system only more sophisticated.

Don't be silly. It's certainly not the same thing as using console cheats.
That's not "metagaming", it's just using weapons at your disposal. It's there, you're not using anything that's not offered within the game.
It's like those silly arguments: Person A: "That spell/armor/weapon is too powerful and it really imbalances the game. Person B: "Yeah, it's very strong, just don't use it if you find it too powerful". <roll eyes>

Same thing here - it's a gameplay mechanic they've consciously integrated into the game; why should I ignore it? It's not a bug or anything. And how can you compare that with cheating?

Sure, if your entire party is composed only by rogues and if they all somehow succeed stealth checks, yeah.
Or.. if somehow all monsters manage to fail a *long*-duration stun spell saving throw.

RP is not something objective nor is RP the driving force number one for all players playing such games.

Where in my response did I say it was? I just said I didn't think it was very RP, I never said everyone had to be into RP or had to play it in RP style. I was just stating my opinion in regards to how I RP.

Nor do I know how it will work since I have not played the game at all. I was going purely on the Dev posts. It sounded like there may be a way to retreat. Perhaps if you get into combat and quickly figure out you are out numbered there might be a way to stun some enemies and get the party (as a unit) to outrun them. Maybe there isn't. I went solely on the post made having no experience with the actual game play.

Don't be silly. It's certainly not the same thing as using console cheats.
That's not "metagaming", it's just using weapons at your disposal. It's there, you're not using anything that's not offered within the game.
It's like those silly arguments: Person A: "That spell/armor/weapon is too powerful and it really imbalances the game. Person B: "Yeah, it's very strong, just don't use it if you find it too powerful". <roll eyes>

Same thing here - it's a gameplay mechanic they've consciously integrated into the game; why should I ignore it? It's not a bug or anything. And how can you compare that with cheating?

Matter of opinion only here. Taking advantage of game mechanics in such a way may not be "cheating" (and I never used the word cheating anyhow, that was your word) but it is still using knowledge of the game to circumvent a restriction that was most likely not intended. That is very different than wearing armor you get in the game. Comparing wearing equipment you get into the game to purposely running around at a low level to every zone in the game just so you can lock in a low level .. well as you put it in your post "that is just silly" *rolls eyes*.

Who said anyone had to ignore it? If you want to do that go ahead. I am just pointing out that one can hardly complain about how "easy" the game will be because of how they did the scaling … if they purposely circumvent how they implemented the scaling by running around at a low level to everything place in the game to lock in a low level, instead of just playing the game.

That is what I meant by consoles - you can choose to use them but if you do don't complain that the game is to easy. You can lock in low levels, on purpose by using game knowledge of scaling, but than it is hardly the developers fault if the game is then to easy for you.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark
Where in my response did I say it was? I just said I didn't think it was very RP, I never said everyone had to be into RP or had to play it in RP style. I was just stating my opinion in regards to how I RP.

Where did I say that you said RP is objective? In that paragraph I was expressing my opinion about RP.

Matter of opinion only here. Taking advantage of game mechanics in such a way may not be "cheating" (and I never used the word cheating anyhow, that was your word) but it is still using knowledge of the game to circumvent a restriction that was most likely not intended. That is very different than wearing armor you get in the game. Comparing wearing equipment you get into the game to purposely running around at a low level to every zone in the game just so you can lock in a low level .. well as you put it in your post "that is just silly" *rolls eyes*.

Yes, you used it. "Its the same thing with being able to issue console commands in a game to add levels, gold or god mode." What are console commands other than cheats?

What if you have a RP (mmm, RP) reason to run from area to area because your character is very cautious and wants to sneakily visit all areas first and then make a battle plan? Is it then ok to do it?
What if you do not know about this "permanent scaling"? Is it then ok?

But if somehow you know about it.. you shouldn't play this way because it's suddenly cheating and circumventing the system. Oh my. Better to stay ignorant about game mechanics because otherwise you might be accused of cheating.

Who said anyone had to ignore it? If you want to do that go ahead. I am just pointing out that one can hardly complain about how "easy" the game will be because of how they did the scaling … if they purposely circumvent how they implemented the scaling by running around at a low level to everything place in the game to lock in a low level, instead of just playing the game.

Can a person who didn't know about this dumb system complain about how easy the game is after he visited all areas at a lower level? Is he entitled to complain? Lets think about him. He's of pure heart.. he didn't mean to exploit the dumb scaling system.. he did it by accident!

That is what I meant by consoles - you can choose to use them but if you do don't complain that the game is to easy. You can lock in low levels, on purpose by using game knowledge of scaling, but than it is hardly the developers fault if the game is then to easy for you.

Stop compairing console commands, which are the definition of cheating, to getting advantage from dumb gameplay mechanics. It's ridiculous.
Yes, it's exactly the develepors' fault because they implemented this idiotic gameplay mechanic.

Originally Posted by Tan
Where did I say that you said RP is objective? In that paragraph I was expressing my opinion about RP.

You lost me here. I was referring to your statement "RP is not something objective nor is RP the driving force number one for all players playing such games." I thought you were implying I was looking at this from only an RP perspective and you were indicating not everyone RP's. I agree with that - I was only talking about my own perspective.

Yes, you used it. "Its the same thing with being able to issue console commands in a game to add levels, gold or god mode." What are console commands other than cheats?

Sounds like that is your interpretation not mine. If you think it is cheating by your definition than fine. I know folks who use console commands to fix bugs, adjust their character to fit a certain theme but not to "cheat". Just because you see it that way doesn't me everyone does. It can be used to cheat but it can also be used for other reasons that I would not refer to as cheating. If I had wanted to use the word cheating I would have.

What if you have a RP (mmm, RP) reason to run from area to area because your character is very cautious and wants to sneakily visit all areas first and then make a battle plan? Is it then ok to do it?
What if you do not know about this "permanent scaling"? Is it then ok?

So you would take your rogue, at a super low level, to every zone on the map, ahead of time, blissfully unaware of the scaling dynamics, then return and start to actually play the game? I would doubt that is a common way of playing, but regardless as to how common or uncommon it would be, I have to agree that someone would have a valid reason to have a complaint with the scaling in that case. No argument there.

I would think most people would stealth out each area as they came to it in a game. However I have to concede you make a valid point I had not thought of. While I doubt everyone would explore all areas they could do some scouting ahead of time which could cause some slight scaling issues if they explored and decided to come back at a much later date.

Still I do not know enough about the mechanics of the process to jump on some "this is dumb" bandwagon. I would assume there has been some thought to the process by the developers and would hold off on making assumptions until I had played the game more.

You point out some potential problems but not enough for me to just conclude its "dumb".

But if somehow you know about it.. you shouldn't play this way because it's suddenly cheating and circumventing the system. Oh my. Better to stay ignorant about game mechanics because otherwise you might be accused of cheating.

The obvious chip on your shoulder and sarcasm aside, I am not sure one has to always know the deeper game mechanics to play a game. That is usually only of interest to the more hard-core folks and the number crunchers (which sometimes I am and sometimes I am not).

I still consider it unlikely most players would play the way you outlined but granted that is just my own opinion. I also would think Bioware has enough experience under their belt to probably have considered a lot of these issues and planned accordingly. But that is just an assumption on my part. Still I would tend to trust their knowledge of the system over yours.

Stop compairing console commands, which are the definition of cheating, to getting advantage from dumb gameplay mechanics. It's ridiculous.
Yes, it's exactly the develepors' fault because they implemented this idiotic gameplay mechanic.

If the person wasn't aware than obviously it is not taking advantage. I was referring to someone doing it on purpose.

As for being idiotic - purely your opinion. I have yet to see any real proof that it is idiotic. I can see some potential flaws in the system, that may or may not exist depending on how the code was implemented, but most any system can be picked apart to find flaws. Just not sure this is one worth crying over or not.

I tend to not like scaling in general myself and would prefer it would not be in place. On the other hand I am not going to whine about it just to whine. I will have to see how it works in action.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark

I tend to not like scaling in general myself and would prefer it would not be in place.

Lets agree we very much agree on this and leave it at that. *hug*

PS. I tend to very clearly define cheating/non cheating. Where you can't clearly define the line - i.e., if you know about the permanent scaling system, how many areas can you visit at low level before someone else thinks that's exploiting - I do not consider it cheating/exploiting because it's purely subjective.

Originally Posted by Tan
Lets agree we very much agree on this and leave it at that. *hug*

PS. I tend to very clearly define cheating/non cheating. Where you can't clearly define the line - i.e., if you know about the permanent scaling system, how many areas can you visit at low level before someone else thinks that's exploiting - I do not consider it cheating/exploiting because it's purely subjective.

Sounds good to me.

I do see your point on cheating in regards to the scaling - although the way you posted it just now makes more sense that what I picked up on earlier. As for the console - I just know folks sometimes will use a console command to adjust their character, not to take advantage, but to make it closer to what they consider their character to be, or to fix a screw up they might have made be de-leveling and re-leveling, and to fix bugs.

As for the rest - will see how things work out in the game. Hard for me to make a judgment until I play. Will be curious if the forums show a lot of threads on scaling after the game has been out.

I know my own opinion will be based on just playing through the game as I always play games and how good, or bad, that experience is. I am hoping the scaling will have minimal impact, based on the things we already discussed. But I could be wrong - I only hope I am not as I could really use a good game for a change

I would appreciate if bioware for once acknowledges their mistakes, realising that a LOT of people hate level scaling, and release a mod that eliminates level scaling. It's very simple actually; adjusting all monsters, with a script, at the middle of their scale and that's it.
I know it can be done by the community, but I want it from bioware for the reason in the first sentence.

Given that you don't know exactly how much monsters scale and how it works out when playing, demanding Bioware release a specific mod for a game that you appear to have nothing for contempt for, well it comes off as a little asinine, to be honest.

If your complaint basically boils down to the fact that if you go out of your way to break the game, the systems don't work so well, then it reads to me as though you're just picking at the game for the sake of it.

In a game like this where it's hard to predict the level of power that the party will have when it tackles certain encounters, it does make sense to be a bit flexible about the dificulty of the encounters. There will still be hard areas and easier areas, and it sounds as though most kinds of monsters and enemies have maximum power levels so that you don't get Oblivion's bandits with glass armour and so on.

Until we know the details and how it actually plays out in the game, it's silly to be criticising it, let alone making demands.

Who's making demands?

I'm seeing someone who'd appreciate - using his own words - something.

That's hardly a demand, now is it.

I am not a big fun of level scaling , i believe that there must be areas where you die , areas where you rule and areas where things can go either way all according to your level ; when i need 5 arrows to kill a monster in level 1 i should be able to kill it by breathing to it's general direction at level 30 and i mean all same species monsters in all areas.
Not sure about the dialogue system, KoTOR had it right, not too short and not too excessive , reading lore books is usually more interesting than talking to people.
I am not very fond of the MQ grabbing you from the throat and forcing you into it's path either (using group's NPCs or not) , this is mainly because i like developing principles for each character so he does or doesn't do things not because his skills allow or disallow them but because he plays by his rules . Sticking into MQ means that i will be left with skill development and this hardly makes DAO "game of the decade" for me.

Badesumofu, first take a look at the nice reading-with-comprehension lesson offered to you by that smart and handsome guy.

Originally Posted by Badesumofu
Given that you don't know exactly how much monsters scale and how it works out when playing, demanding Bioware release a specific mod for a game that you appear to have nothing for contempt for, well it comes off as a little asinine, to be honest.

Given that I know how monsters scale in this game and given that I dislike the concept of scaling (even if it scales only for one point of HP ) I can say without doubt that I dislike the scaling system in DA. I don't need to play the game first. Maybe you need to kiss a cow first to know if you like it or not, but I don't.

I can also say that a lot of players, like me, dislike scaling in any form. It would be a smart move from bioware (and bioware really needs smart moves) to release a non-scaling mod to make such a large portion of its playerbase a bit more happy with the game. Now, that bio-developers think their games are superbly perfect and are unwilling to release official mods for them is another subject.

If your complaint basically boils down to the fact that if you go out of your way to break the game, the systems don't work so well, then it reads to me as though you're just picking at the game for the sake of it.

This line of reasoning reminds me too much of something that would come out of bioware's cesspool bakery, i.e. their forums.
Having the desire to explore as many areas as possible and then deciding what to do (combat/dialog) can hardly be equated to "going out of my way to break the game".
Exploring areas (for WHATEVER reason) =/= going out of someone's way to break the game. (Repeat it 100 times.)

In a game like this where it's hard to predict the level of power that the party will have when it tackles certain encounters <>

That's one of the wonders of non-linear exploration in rpgs. You know, many people enjoy it. It's doable and it's enjoyable.

Until we know the details and how it actually plays out in the game, it's silly to be criticising it, let alone making demands.

It would be silly that you criticize anything you haven't played since you don't seem to be able to make a broad picture about anything, unless you study it for a century. Others can.

This may be a stupid question but… I've seen several vids of this game and some of them seem pretty much like NWN2 sort of isometric and some are zoomed in and very cinematic. Are these latter vids just cutscenes or can you actually play in that mode?

Originally Posted by fragonard
This may be a stupid question but… I've seen several vids of this game and some of them seem pretty much like NWN2 sort of isometric and some are zoomed in and very cinematic. Are these latter vids just cutscenes or can you actually play in that mode?

You can play in both.

A review from the usually solid Norwegian site Gamer.no:
http://gamer.no/article.php?articleId=28995

Not the same guy that praised Risen as one of the greatest RPGs as of late, so there is no direct comparison, but the writer does seem enthusiastic. As usual, the combat gets thumbs up, as does the overall world and depth of it all, but certain things are lacking:
- The atmosphere could be better (lack of animals etc).
- Some textures could've been significantly improved.
- Certain story elements are a bit too obvious (LotR inspired stuff).
- The game is significantly better on the PC (the XBox 360 version gets 7/10).

The PC version gets 9/10. The overall impression is that it's an amazing game.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Level scaling?

How sad…

It's done much differently than in Oblivian, at least so far. It fits right in with the story so for me at least it hasn't been noticable. The fights are very tough. I've played around 14 hours so far and I've finished just over `10 percent of the game.

>< I can't wait to get it. What is the average completion time? I was thinking about grabbing Divinity along with this game, but not sure if I'll need to.

As fas as reviews. here's one from a 10 year old (after watching his dad play for a while): The 10 year old first thought the game was 'boring', though.

About an hour later, in he comes again and is standing by me just casually watching. Next thing you know he is sitting next to me, gazing at the TV (I won't give away where I was exactly in the game), helping me fend off evil and gather treasure at every twist and turn. He was gazing at the screen like we were watching an action movie. 2 hours later he couldn't take it anymore, fell asleep, and I carried him off to bed. His words right before I noticed him falling asleep was "Dad, this game rocks!!".

(Zeke101 from this source: http://daforums.bioware.com/viewtopi…2979&forum=135 )

I smiled a little inside --- and thought that we here had a future rpg player amoung us Maybe…

Originally Posted by aries100
As fas as reviews. here's one from a 10 year old (after watching his dad play for a while): The 10 year old first thought the game was 'boring', though.

(Zeke101 from this source: http://daforums.bioware.com/viewtopi…2979&forum=135 )

I smiled a little inside —- and thought that we here had a future rpg player amoung us Maybe…

Lol, I'm kind of surprised his dad would just let him watch it , it is pretty violent after all.

Originally Posted by Burnzy
Lol, I'm kind of surprised his dad would just let him watch it , it is pretty violent after all.

Yah really, but pretty cute tho

Originally Posted by Burnzy
>< I can't wait to get it. What is the average completion time? I was thinking about grabbing Divinity along with this game, but not sure if I'll need to.

From what I've heard everyone likes DAO but some people thought it coulda been better, lot of comparisons to Oblivion and Morrowind. Div2 might be a nice complement, similar but some big differences,
Div doesn't offer party micro, which can be a good thing if your looking for that old rpg feel - kinda keeps things simpler
and that crazy be a dragon
DOA seems to be a lot more brutal too… Baby killers? or something like that, some heavy choices to be made