Modern Warfare 2 Controversy *Spoilers*

Originally Posted by JDR13
Maybe because the US never started a war in which they tried to conquer a continent and exterminate an entire race of people in the process.

Just my theory.

Could be right. Here in Germany, weapons and war-like things are kind of banned BECAUSE OF THE PAST. Even nationalism, which is regarded as normal in th U.S. is very much frowned upon. Germans have often quite some problems with this - as I personally see it - over-the-top nationalism in the U.S. .

Germans see some kind of responsibility - other cultures maybe don't. Especially cultures which see that it brings good results to their country if they tried to conquer a country.

There is an exception to this : Vietnam. Agent Orange very much did not only "delete" many plants, but also injured people - kind of. Not obviously. Second sight.
My Lai was an incident, an operation intended to exterminate all people from a certain place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

I have once invented a kind of saying or proverb :

"A winner doesn't have the need to learn; it is always the loser who has to". Bad grammar, I guess, but as a quick translation I couldn't do it better right now.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
I have once invented a kind of saying or proverb :

"A winner doesn't have the need to learn; it is always the loser who has to". Bad grammar, I guess, but as a quick translation I couldn't do it better right now.

Nice saying, except one big problem. The winner will become the loser if they no longer learn from their mistakes. Even winners make mistakes.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Do you have a source for that? and I think the 1990's was an era with a lot of series which was just about violence? US is also famous for having the most violent happenings like mass killings, has the most amount of serial killers, school shoothings etc etc etc.

I know the gouverment has been investing a lot in police force and security though.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

Since 1994, violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2005.

Has a bunch of graphs, too.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
I agree.

But it is not one everyone should use. I have read in the press incidents of seniors (60+) shooting (at) neighbours or children because they were either making too much noise (the children), or because they had had a quarrel with them for many years (neighbours). I a recent incident, such a person indeed killed a neighbour and his son.

For some characters, an efficient and mighty tool is just too much to bear. Especially unstable characters will very likely become succumbed at one point to the might of their tool, especially in a state of rage, with lots of adrenaline and testosterone flowing through the body.

Not everyone has the strength to withstand the wish to just use a weapon to solve some small, little problems …

I agree. Violence isn't an acceptable solution to all problems. But I don't see violent video games/media being an issue, especially since as games have become increasingly violent (or at least more graphic in their depiction of violence) violent crime rates have dropped in the U.S. I would argue that the vast majority of people who would 'go crazy' and start shooting at people will find a reason to do it regardless of what media they view/play (assuming they aren't trying to use the 'GTA defense').

You could potentially even make an argument that people can channel violent impulses into video games and thus not be as dangerous to society, although I would hesitate to make that argument myself as I have not seen convincing data on it.

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

Since 1994, violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2005.
Has a bunch of graphs, too.

Gawd here I thought sweden had a high rate…. but US has almost twice as many violent crimes! counted in % sweden is at around 1% and according to your stats US is at 2….. I can only imagine how it was when it was over 4% … that must have been real rough!!

Thanks for making me feel better about Sweden

The difference is much much less now compared to 15 years ago though… at that time sweden was at like 0.6% and US at 4.2% , I guess that means you guys are heading in the right direction… and we in the wrong one!

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Could be right. Here in Germany, weapons and war-like things are kind of banned BECAUSE OF THE PAST. Even nationalism, which is regarded as normal in th U.S. is very much frowned upon. Germans have often quite some problems with this - as I personally see it - over-the-top nationalism in the U.S.

That is somewhat ironic, considering that nationalism originated in Europe.

IMHO this whole "Russian terrorist mindlessly slaughtering innocent people in the US" thing is terribly overused and I can't blame the Russians for being sick of it.

@gothic gothicness - it's worth noting that Sweden's population is like ten million, as opposed to USA at over 300 million. I bet Los Angeles alone is around ten million!
Some increase in probability due to exponential growth has to be a factor in all that.

I dont know about you people, but I get out a lot of frustration and anger on gaming violence, like Rithrandil said. Then I get tired of it and go to bed. It's very cathartic!

Originally Posted by JDR13
That is somewhat ironic, considering that nationalism originated in Europe.

Perhaps it did. Let's ask native americans about it.

And I'm not sure what is nationalism doing in a debate about using terrorism "quest" inside a certain game.

Originally Posted by joxer
Perhaps it did. Let's ask native americans about it.

Congrats on missing the point completely.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Congrats on missing the point completely.

You say that a lot, JDR

In this case you're right. I was a little taken aback by native Americans being thrown into this discussion. Not even close to what we are talking about…or well you guys are talking about. I've just been watching from the sidelines

In the editorial of the computing magazine called "c't", the editor states that exactly this controversy could have been what propelled the big sales of this game …

… But he also states that he *really* wants games with gopod gameplay depth, and not the x-th implementatio of the same gameplay, and [hopes] that the industry is willing to accept one day that its customers do *not* entirely consist of easily-to-excite teenagers …

Originally Posted by joxer
……..
And I'm not sure what is nationalism doing in a debate about using terrorism "quest" inside a certain game.

Isn't terrorism most often spurred on by/the result of nationalism?

Also besides the point, I realise, but I do kind of see the connection between terrorism and nationalism.

Modern Warfare 2 has been banned in Germany.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Modern Warfare 2 has been banned in Germany.

I recently read that Germany also banned the new Aliens vs Predator that's due to be released in February. It was banned in Australia as well.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Notice how I write if you are a normal person with a stable life and ordinary psyche etc you are ussually fine. However as many recent happenings show, there are also many cases of violence directly connected to movies/games/music videos etc. Just take the guy dressed up as joker in the batman movies who killed children in Belgium….. as an example. Was he affected by the joker in Batman? you can say no…. but you cannot deny how he made up exactly like that.

To say that people are not affected by movies/games/music is just plain out stupid???

You are forgetting one, mildly important fact. The fact is, judges in the US tend to let things slide for "mental illness". Every time someone commits a crime, and gets caught, they blame video games because they know it's practically a guaranteed "not guilty by reason of insanity", and thus they spend 6 months in a mental health facility being coddled until they're declared "fit for society", and released.

A woman in TN shot her husband in the back while he was asleep in bed. She got caught, and pleaded insanity. 6 months later, she was back on the street, rolling in the heather with a new vict… I mean boyfriend, and about the only thing that happened is she lost custody of her kids, and just had visitation. Last I remember, she was even suing to regain custody.

This is why people claim "GTA/Call of Duty/WoW made me do it!" They know they can get away with damn near anything if they convince people they're insane, and by claiming that these games affect them, that's pretty much insanity right there.

Me personally, I've played "violent" video games since I was 3. I played Bard's Tale 1 with my grandfather, and sat in on DnD sessions (1E!). I've seen movies in which men lost limbs due to both sword, monstrous thing, and artillery fire. And I've got books describing men being cooked inside burning tanks in gory detail (specifically in the Italian campaign during WWII). And my musical tastes run from Don McLean to Luciano Pavarotti to Ozzy Osbourne to Johnny Cash to Todd Agnew.

I've owned a rifle since I was 7, and have fired guns since I was 4. I have a Korean-war era battle rifle and am planning on buying a Mosin Nagant 1891/30 after the first of the year. I am also a student of the German Longsword and English Quarterstaff.

Yet the only time I've ever killed anything was a squirrel while hunting, which disgusted me immensely. I haven't hunted since, though I keep my marksmanship up. The only time I've carried a gun in anger was when a violent pit bull was going around the neighborhood attacking things smaller than it. I was more worried it'd decide that one of the 5 small children in the neighboring houses would make a fine easy mark. So I kept my rifle ready.

In the end, it attacked my brother, and he shot it 3 times in the head with .38 hollowpoints, the same kind the police use. Semi-wad cutters, hard hitting stuff. It staggered off about a hundred yards before finally dying. Had we been like Spain or some other country where the right to self defense was removed, he'd been mauled, maybe killed. In the United States, he was able to carry a century old revolver, and it saved his life.

Pitbulls are a different story, imho.

After several incidents that were reported by the press (among them several children being killed), a very strict law was made to prohibit people from holding very aggressive dogs like the pitbull, and having to restrain their dogs - or so I understood it.

The holders often say it's not their fault the dog became so aggressive.

I don't quite know what to think about this, but i rather tend to the opinion that this is like driving cars: Some people just can't handle it.

So, for cars, there has been a "driver license" including a test for ages now … But what about people who hold dogs ? In out country no-one is forced to actually *learn* how to handle a dog, to grow it up, etc. Rumors say that some people buy these dogs *because* they are aggressive ! And other rumors say they train them with trees … To attack them (the trees) and never let them go … Until the owner allows them so … Other rumors say the dogs are tampered with so that they become extra aggressive through pain …

You can see it two ways :

- normal people are allowed to carry a gun to defend themselves
- laws are erected to keep dog owners from producing aggressive dogs.

The cliché - at least here in Germany - more or less goes like this : In theU.S. , everybody gets a gun to defend himself or herself when things have gone wrong -

- but the source of the problems is not addressed at. Total freedom. Not restraining anyone.

Here in Germany, the cliché goes vice versa.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Pitbulls are a different story, imho.

After several incidents that were reported by the press (among them several children being killed), a very strict law was made to prohibit people from holding very aggressive dogs like the pitbull, and having to restrain their dogs - or so I understood it.

The holders often say it's not their fault the dog became so aggressive.

A poodle can be very aggresive if you train it to be or treat it like garbage. Just out of curiosity, are poodles banned as well? They can give quite a nasty bite on your ankles.

It's not the fault of the dog. It's the fault of the owner/previous owner. Pit Bulls are very sweet dogs. If you train them to be bad or treat them like garbage then of course they are going to turn bad. Just like any other dog or human would, but if you treat them just like any other dog then they are the sweetest little dogs in the world. My brother's dog is a Pit Bull and I helped raise her. She is the cutest little thing….well not so little, but she would never hurt a fly or even protect the house. She is actually sorta a chicken. It's soo funny too since she's a pretty big dog.

Anyways, this bugs me that a whole country bans a breed of dog. The stupidity of it reminds me of Egypt when they killed their pigs because of the swine flu.

I don't quite know what to think about this, but i rather tend to the opinion that this is like driving cars: Some people just can't handle it.

Too true. Maybe Germany should start handing out licenses instead of blaming a breed of dog for the ignorance of humans.

So, for cars, there has been a "driver license" including a test for ages now … But what about people who hold dogs ? In out country no-one is forced to actually *learn* how to handle a dog, to grow it up, etc. Rumors say that some people buy these dogs *because* they are aggressive ! And other rumors say they train them with trees … To attack them (the trees) and never let them go … Until the owner allows them so … Other rumors say the dogs are tampered with so that they become extra aggressive through pain …

Exactly.

The cliché - at least here in Germany - more or less goes like this : In theU.S. , everybody gets a gun to defend himself or herself when things have gone wrong -

- but the source of the problems is not addressed at. Total freedom. Not restraining anyone.

Here in Germany, the cliché goes vice versa.

So….no freedom and banning anything that causes no harm by themselves whether they be video games, dogs or whatever?

Or even worse, trust your fate to your government? No guns means you rely on the police for your protection. I find that a very scary thought The police can't be everywhere to protect every single citizen 24 hours a day. Or I guess you can do what I do and just own a really big knife. Tons of knives in Asia, not so many guns Although, I like your idea for a license for owning any kind of animal.

There is such a thing as responsible freedom which I think is what you are trying to say. You "can" own certain things, but you have to prove you are not an imbecile who is going to abuse this freedom.

As for Germany banning this game or Alien vs. Predator that is just silly. I'm reminded of what the great Bill Hicks would say, "You are free to do what we tell you!"