Is Turn Based RPG's Dead?

Have you ever considered that people my age were among the pioneers of playing CRPG's and in those days they were nearly ALL TB. We're still around and most of us still enjoy playing games, but we're no longer catered for. We maybe a 'niche' market now, but we're a large niche with money to spend. I struggle with action games; I no longer have fast reaction time, but with TB, suddenly my physical skills no longer matter, just my mental skills and the skills of my player character. If people like me were the backbone of computer gaming back in the 'old days', then surely we're still a sustainable market. Who cares about current sales figures when there's no decent TB games out there for valid comparison. Make a good TB CRPG and people will buy it, if it's marketed fairly. Leave the consoles for the teenies!!

Isn't Eschalon turn based? Any ideas on the success of it? (Granted I have no idea about the marketing).

The last, major publisher turn based RPG I can think of was ToEE.

E1 did well enough for them to make an E2. It didn't get a great deal of marketing hype, but sites like this one did what we could to support and promote it. We'll do all we can for E2 and other Indies as well.

I know they had a lot of problems with people pirating E1, even it did not cost much and had no copy protection. People to pirate this game are truly the scum of earth. None of the usual pirating excuses would apply!

I agree, if these pirates want to kill off Indie gaming, then pirating is the way to go. My idea of a great 'DRM'- put a serious trojan in the code and only your initial authorisation deletes it before it activates and wipes everything off your HD!! Malicious aren't I!!!!

Originally Posted by Corwin
Have you ever considered that people my age were among the pioneers of playing CRPG's and in those days they were nearly ALL TB. We're still around and most of us still enjoy playing games, but we're no longer catered for.

This fits to my theory of the overall market catering only a younger generation.

All in all, it seems to me that ALL IT-related markets are only catering a younger generation, or almost. At least here in Germany, older, more experienced IT-professionals were fired when the IT-market collapsed in the early years of this decade, and now they're (the companies) are totally desparate in searching experienced IT-professionals !

A bit off topic, but since we brought up 'no drm', I thought I would add this:

I'm playing Ultima 6 right now, and one of the things I have really enjoyed is bringing out the cloth map of Britannia, looking up spells and monster info in the 'Compendium' (not manual, written like something you would use for reference in real life).

Sure those things can be scanned, but having them spread out before you is a fundamentally different experience than flipping back and forth between windows.

THAT IMO is the ultimate DRM because the full experience simply can't be pirated. Sure, people would still pirate, but if you tied more of the game into those physical things that come with the game, I think you'd at least slow down piracy some.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
Isn't Eschalon turn based? Any ideas on the success of it? (Granted I have no idea about the marketing).

The last, major publisher turn based RPG I can think of was ToEE.

Eschalon gameplay is bellow the average, sure some people enjoyed it a lot and that's cool but the general design is flawed. It's improved Gold Box with a single character instead of a team. That could have done a marvelous TB CRPG with party and allies (like in Realmz) or with a fighting more tricky and more inventory based and first chance is last chance like in Roguelike or Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer. But as it is, it's a good TB CRPG flawed by its general fight system design.

Originally Posted by Squeek
…
When you referred to "the exact numbers" I assumed you meant sales numbers, since all others are just a matter of opinion. Sales numbers are more significant in established markets where there's little or no growth potential but less significant in emerging ones.

Everyone who's ever worked in marketing expressed opinions using numbers. Understanding those numbers is the key to evaluating those opinions.

Easy job to deny any facts. A bit too easy don't you think? You didn't put a single fact so I wonder where is your evaluation and on what it is based.

Originally Posted by Squeek
You're on your own, dealing with Corwin.

Ok let go!

Originally Posted by Dasale
Easy job to deny any facts. A bit too easy don't you think? You didn't put a single fact so I wonder where is your evaluation and on what it is based.

Sorry if my point wasn't clear. It was my only point.

Originally Posted by Corwin
Have you ever considered that people my age were among the pioneers of playing CRPG's and in those days they were nearly ALL TB. We're still around and most of us still enjoy playing games, but we're no longer catered for.

The problem is that you are expecting to be targeted with budgets that could be supported only by a much wider consumer base than the base of old players like you and me.

Originally Posted by Corwin
We maybe a 'niche' market now, but we're a large niche with money to spend.

I don't think this is right. Old CRPG players still active and enjoying more TB is most probably a small number of people. Here some facts:
- 1974, 100 000 units (action game).
- 1977, Video game market crash
- 1980, Ultima on Apple II, 30 000 units
- 1983-84, Video game market crash
- 1985, 100.000.000$ is the sum of worldwide games sells.
- 1990, NES in USA only, 19 Million units
- 1989, Super Mario Bross 3, 9M units sold for USA and Japan only.
- 1997, Diablo 2.5M units
- 1998, Baldur's Gate 2M units
- 2000, BG2 5M units
- 2001, Arcanum 230K units
- 2001, GTA 3 about 20M units… for PS2.
- 2003, Temple of Elemental Evil 130K units
- Wii: I'm bored to collect numbers, you can easily find plenty about the wii. Senior and video games? Wii and series of "games" those seniors buy are quite far from TB CRPG world. Well ok it's not Australian seniors.

Ok there are important numbers missing in this list. It's difficult to find numbers for old computer RPG and that's even more complex because of multi platform release. It's so difficult that I suspect the reason is the numbers aren't good. Anyway this list is better than nothing and I wonder where is the mass of old seniors that played games, not to mention those playing TB CRPG and still playing.

Very good TB CRPG? Arcanum, 230K units isn't a lot. Not a good marketing, a bit too easy to use this arguing. Where was the good marketing for Gothic 2 or The Witcher? Only much after those games had sold much more than 200K units.

So no evidence but hints:
- Old senior still game player, enjoying TB CRPG… Very small base.
- Last very good TB CRPG, a mid failure, ok the reason could not be the game genre.
- Senior buying games? See Wii games sell, seems not at all TB CRPG.

The problem is people expecting high, high enough to not be compatible with a small consumer base.

Originally Posted by Corwin
Make a good TB CRPG and people will buy it, if it's marketed fairly. Leave the consoles for the teenies!!

Perhaps, I'd love it too, but most hints I see are more negative than positive. Moreover with old good simulators running nowadays it's possible that most seniors will prefer playing old games of their young adult time than buy a shiny crap made by a bunch of young idiots.

Anyway I go continue play Realmz or go try finish Shiren The Wanderer and let you Drakensang and Fallout 3… I wonder who is the true TB CRPG fan here? ;-)

Originally Posted by Squeek
Sorry if my point wasn't clear. It was my only point.

Great, thanks to push deeper the knife! Ok fine I'm the big evil, nastier human living.

Originally Posted by Corwin
Leave the consoles for the teenies!!

I didn't played a lot on console unlike younger generation, my brain didn't get washed by some intensive japanization, rare time I tried a console it's been a major disappointment, I don't share at all the high indulgence that many console RPG players have about some weak design seen in too many JRPG like extreme rate of random fights, ton of uninteresting random rights, fights system too limited, poor class systems with almost zero player choices, secrets only for the freaks with poor hint design and some other weak points.

But the NDS is changing a little my point of view and I got the feeling that the "saving" has more chance to come from console than from computers:

• A first point is that it's a much bigger base of players with an deep knowledge of RPG history even if often it's very limited to JRPG.
• A second point is that it's a base that clearly haven't forget what gameplay is and that realism, innovation or interactive novel aren't the core of gaming but it's just gameplay.
• A good success that got a series like Etrian Odyssey had to occur on console, I doubt PC could have supported such design. Turn Based, very old school, no real innovation, but a gameplay quite good based on some design details.

And gameplay is where TB CRPG could beat hard any other RPG genre.

Originally Posted by Dasale
But the NDS is changing a little my point of view and I got the feeling that the "saving" has more chance to come from console than from computers:

I love the DS for similar reasons - while the PSP is my sort of 'alternate console experience', the DS has wonderful games that remind me of the PC gaming experience.

Originally Posted by txa1265
I love the DS for similar reasons - while the PSP is my sort of 'alternate console experience', the DS has wonderful games that remind me of the PC gaming experience.

I'm a newbie in DS gaming and haven't yet play a lot of DS or GBA RPG but it's true that I already played some that could have been PC games:

• A top quality modern indie roguelike game, Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer.
• A solid indie game mildly inspired by roguelike game, Izuna : The Legend of the Ninja.
• An excellent PC/Mac/Commodore game of the end of the 80's, Etrian Odyssey.
• A nice non major and a bit short but quite fun Doom RPG Turn based that could have been an influence for Doom design, Orcs & Elves.

But for me the DS is also an opportunity to discover JRPG area, I really dislike some aspects of some JRPG, mainly the abuse of random fights and some fight system that I feel just average. But the remake of FF IV is quite cool, the graphics style remind me Myst! And Golden Sun is an amazing RPG despite some very average points through the fights.

That said I put a temporary slowdown to my DS gaming because another game stormed my gaming desk, one more turn based RPG, Realmz and its scenario.

I'd love get a remake of it on the DS and of ADOM too with some game changes like sample graphics and in game help and less obscure hints.

Well, here we are a year later and all we have got is Dragon Age:Origins, which as least has pausable play!

Originally Posted by UK_John
Well, here we are a year later and all we have got is Dragon Age:Origins, which as least has pausable play!

Which isn't really any more TB-like than the usual RT. It's simply easier to manage.

Im playing pools of radiance 2 atm and Ihave to say that I see no point with turnbased with todays thechnology if you ask me. Makes more point on mobile devices. Modern RPGs have pausefunction instead which is ok by me.

Originally Posted by JemyM
Im playing pools of radiance 2 atm and Ihave to say that I see no point with turnbased with todays thechnology if you ask me. Makes more point on mobile devices. Modern RPGs have pausefunction instead which is ok by me.

Having recently played the three Elven Legacy add-ons, I say pure turn-based stuff has a place, as does RT and RTwP. Personally I love RTwP for games like Bioware stuff, RT for stuff like Risen (and FPS, etc) and turn-based for more strategic stuff. It's all good.

Originally Posted by JemyM
Im playing pools of radiance 2 atm and Ihave to say that I see no point with turnbased with todays thechnology if you ask me. Makes more point on mobile devices.

Saying that TB is obsolete is like saying that there's no point in chess since we have football and other next-gen sports.