Mass Effect 2 - Free Cerberus Armor and Eviscerator Shotgun DLC

Originally Posted by DeepO
Help us all.

Well explain why its not a proper RPG. Its not my favourite RPG by a long stretch however its a damn sight more RPG like than ME2.

Originally Posted by Coldcall
Oblivion is a proper RPG and is far deeper/heavier from an RPG perspective.

If you add the Oblivion expansion, when counting every quest in the game, I remember only 2 choices you can make in the entire game, one being which of the two houses to support in the expansion. No One Lives Forever 2 have more choices than Oblivion.

And no, what armor to wear isn't a choice in that regard.

The pillar of dialog and emotion in Oblivion was if a NPC could make you laugh, like the orc that always misplaced his words, but most of the dialogue is like;

NPC: I saw a mudcrab yesterday.
- Rumours?
- Goodbye

Originally Posted by JemyM
If you add the Oblivion expansion, when counting every quest in the game, I remember only 2 choices you can make in the entire game, one being which of the two houses to support in the expansion. No One Lives Forever 2 have more choices than Oblivion.

And no, what armor to wear isn't a choice in that regard.

The pillar of dialog and emotion in Oblivion was if a NPC could make you laugh, like the orc that always misplaced his words, but most of the dialogue is like;

NPC: I saw a mudcrab yesterday.
- Rumours?
- Goodbye

And? You've complained about the dialogue alot which i can only assume means you think an RPG is based on the standard of dialogue. Its not. Many great RPGs have almost nil dialogue.

Oblivion is more of an RPG on just about every level of gameplay mechanics. Sorry about the non Bioware standard of dialogue but its totally irrelevant from an RPG mechanics depth perspective.

Followig your logic then every interactive movie game ever made is a hardcore rpg…

Originally Posted by Coldcall
Well explain why its not a proper RPG. Its not my favourite RPG by a long stretch however its a damn sight more RPG like than ME2.

Back in the day, quite a few journalist hailed Oblivion as a future, a new messiah of cRPGs while the actual game´s RPG mechanics were largely skeletonized, both in role-play and roll-play sense. No C&Cs, level scaling which completely broke verisimilitude and made character development meaningless, minigames, etc.

The point is, it´s rather ironic that you called Oblivion a proper RPG, because the game is basically an embodiment of what you seem to be concerned about in regards to reception of Mass Effect 2.

Originally Posted by DeepO
Back in the day, quite a few journalist hailed Oblivion as a future, a new messiah of cRPGs while the actual game´s RPG mechanics were largely skeletonized, both in role-play and roll-play sense. No C&Cs, level scaling which completely broke verisimilitude and made character development meaningless, minigames, etc.

The point is, it´s rather ironic that you called Oblivion a proper RPG, because the game is basically an embodiment of what you seem to be concerned about in regards to reception of Mass Effect 2.

What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.

However i would agree that vanilla Oblivion left much to be desired but its still a way more involved, complex RPG than ME2.

Just from a basic perspective of how you level up and how your skills improve from usage Oblivion craps all over ME2.

For gods sakes, in ME2 you never even know what your xp is exactly. It just says how much to go for the next level. Fursther more, xp is doled out on a per compelted misison basis. You get nothing for working harder or less hard on the missions.

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.

You think thats a solid rpg engine do you?> You need to get out more.

DeepO,

One more thing to add. I never accepted Oblivion as genre defining or some huge quantum leap in RPGs.

Morrowind was a quantum leap in open endedness and configuration. Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.

Originally Posted by Coldcall
What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.

The obvious comparison is that both got obscenely high scores with blatant 'streamlining' of what many call traditional RPG elements, each with some significant flaws that are either ignored or glossed over in reviews.

Originally Posted by Coldcall
Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.

I'd say Oblivion was more than just "slightly" dumbed down.

Originally Posted by Coldcall
Oblviion was purely their slghtly dumbed-down follow-on with a slightly nicer graphics engine.

Yep, though "slightly" is an understatement.
Chances are this "dumbing down" along with critical acclaim totally blown out of proportion quite significantly contributed (or maybe just hastened, eh) to the overall "dumbing down" of the genre. Quest compass, for example, is a standard cRPG feature nowadays.
I wasn´t commenting on ME2´s "rpgness" at all.

Originally Posted by txa1265
The obvious comparison is that both got obscenely high scores with blatant 'streamlining' of what many call traditional RPG elements, each with some significant flaws that are either ignored or glossed over in reviews.

Yes they did but at least in the case of Oblivion it was a genuine RPG (more or less). My point about ME2 is its getting high scores and mentioned as an RPG in the same reviews!

Originally Posted by DeepO
Yep, though "slightly" is an understatement.
Chances are this "dumbing down" along with critical acclaim totally blown out of proportion quite significantly contributed (or maybe just hastened, eh) to the overall "dumbing down" of the genre. Quest compass, for example, is a standard cRPG feature nowadays.
I wasn´t commenting on ME2´s "rpgness" at all.

Ya i hate quests compasses too :-)

Thing is in ME2 its so linear the quest compass is completely redundant. There is no point in the game where one can choose from two diferent paths. You are on rails and theres no leaving them.

But i do wish you;d adress my point about the fact that a Shepard in ME2 needs not do any heavy lifting for his experience levels. He seriously could be a bystrander for most missions and the outcome would be excatly the same.

In fact in the whole Me2 i never felt in danger once, except for the fight against the Praetorian at Horizon. Even the final mission was a joke because the last boss is so easy to kill its ridiculous.

At east with Oblviion and the OOO mod it feels a dangerous world. Walk into many of the dungeons and caves at a lower lelvel and you are goblin snack. By the way, OOO re-works the levelling so its static for the majority of dungeons and caves, plots etc..

never once in ME2 did i feel isolated or wondered how will i get out of this mess. Even ME1 had tougher fights such as the Krogan at end of Therum when you pick up Liara, and Noverria can be quite tough when you confront the matriarch anmd her asari commandos.

In case anyone hasn't realized it yet I just thought I should make it clear that in Coldcall's case RPG stands for ROLL Playing Game and not the more commonly known ROLE Playing Game.

It makes his comments a lot easier to understand with this distinction in mind

Originally Posted by Coldcall
What complete nonsense to cpmpare the shallow, ultra-linear, almost zero configurable ME2 to Oblivion.

However i would agree that vanilla Oblivion left much to be desired but its still a way more involved, complex RPG than ME2.

Just from a basic perspective of how you level up and how your skills improve from usage Oblivion craps all over ME2.

For gods sakes, in ME2 you never even know what your xp is exactly. It just says how much to go for the next level. Fursther more, xp is doled out on a per compelted misison basis. You get nothing for working harder or less hard on the missions.

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.

You think thats a solid rpg engine do you?> You need to get out more.

What do you think the role in roleplaying means?

Computerizing mechanics was the primary point with CRPG's during the 80'ies and early 90'ies, but with Baldur's Gate the emphasis was moved more to what the roleplaying games always been about; playing a role. A character. An individual. A person.

In a roleplaying game the mechanics are there to enhance the game, one can say it's the "game" aspect of roleplaying, but roleplaying is still first and foremost about playing the role.

This means making character choices is the essence of a roleplaying game.

What kind of choices can you make to develop a character in Oblivion? What kind of freedom do you really have? What does the game really offer in terms of questing, story and choices?

You mention that ME2 is ultra-linear. The basic structure of ME2 is 7 recruitment missions, 15-20 side missions and 7 loyalty missions that can be taken in any order. The main quest in Oblivion is completely linear, all you must do is to go to the next waypoint in a A-B-C-D-E progression. The game scales in a way that you have little reason to beef up your character and the way equipment/experience/levels work you never really need any special equipment either. You can finish the game as a level 1 character and many actually try to do that.

Write down the quests in Oblivion on a paper and connect them with lines.
Compare this with a game like Fallout 2 or Gothic 3.

You will see that the amount of quests in Oblivion are, despite the size of the world, very few. Most of these are finished very quickly, but you also have guild-quests and the main quests that are super-linear "follow the waypoint" storylines that never ever offer you a choice on how to finish a quest. There are no choice you can make that have any kind of impact on the world. In essence you are playing a themepark where you as a player are there to see events develop but you never really have the ability to affect them.

In Fallout 2 and Gothic 3, every single city you enter, almost every encounter have a choice in how to finish the quest. What path you pick will have a great impact on that area and will affect the ending you get.

Is ME2 a solid RPG? Can it be compared with the old masters like F2? No, it can't.
But comparing it with Oblivion ruins your credibility.

Have to agree with JemyM on this one. Yes, ME2 has been streamlined to be more of a shooter than an RPG, but Oblivion is an action adventure more than anything else.

Doesn't mean it's a bad game, by all means, but the frustration of never being able to make a single choice to change the outcome of a quest ruined the whole experience for me.

Imagine the fun of betraying those pansies in the mage guild so you could join the necromancers instead..

I'm curious as to how Bioware perceive ME2…I'm sure they called it an "RPG". So what exactly do they mean by that? I'm quite far in, and the game has become so repetitive I would stop *but*…it's so pretty :-) I'm a graphics whore… well, at least when the underlying rpg mechanics are simplistic and/or tedious. Every bloody encounter plays out almost identically. Biotics up. zap,pow, shields down! stay in cover, pop out of cover, zap BOOM! barrier up, renew barrier etc etc. So I'd say as a team-based shooter, it's not really that engaging - all that change sis the position and composition of the crates/walls ;-) But it is pretty. Maybe I was a magpie in a previous life. Shiny bauble! Squawk!

At least Mordin keeps me entertained. The Gilbert and Sullivan ditty almost made wet myself. Priceless!

One other question: am I missing something or do you have to *manually* scan every frickin planet if you're looking for metals etc? Or can enter system, launch a probe and wait? Or something? I purchased the scanning upgrade, but my mouse hand gets cramped *drag*drag* *drag* There must eb a better (read: more sensible/logical) way.

Originally Posted by booboo
One other question: am I missing something or do you have to *manually* scan every frickin planet if you're looking for metals etc? Or can enter system, launch a probe and wait? Or something? I purchased the scanning upgrade, but my mouse hand gets cramped *drag*drag* *drag* There must eb a better (read: more sensible/logical) way.

Only scan planets that are good or higher and only do so when you need to, although you might wish to scan systems you enter that doesn't have a relay (if you wasted fuel to get there). If you are desperate, moderate is decent but a waste of money, poor and depleted give you almost nothing even if you probe a 7-8 vein.

And it's also essential that you probe Uranus.

Originally Posted by Coldcall

In theory Shepard could hide behind the crates for just about every battle, never actually killing any baddies himself, and just keep reviving your dead team mates and they will eventually complete the level. Think about that its so broken that Shepard could go through the game without killing anything and styill reach level 25-30.

I haven't read the whole thread, so just one comment: The above is incorrect, even as an exaggeration. You only have limited "revives", based on the limitations of your medi-gel storage and how many units you found.

IMO, Mass Effect 2 is an RPG. It may be a bit thin at places, and the RPG elements might be not great all in all, but I think that the most confusion stems from the elements being less conventional. You can still upgrade your character, and there are some decisions to make. It is just that a lot is managed through improving equipment, and not your character's stats. If Medi-Gel storage would be called a healing skill, armor upgrades endurance etc., I am sure more people woould call it an RPG.

Originally Posted by JemyM
Only scan planets that are good or higher and only do so when you need to, although you might wish to scan systems you enter that doesn't have a relay (if you wasted fuel to get there). If you are desperate, moderate is decent but a waste of money, poor and depleted give you almost nothing even if you probe a 7-8 vein.

And it's also essential that you probe Uranus.

I tried that already - didn't yield much of interest ;-)

Yep, I pretty much ignored poor and even moderate worlds, I just thought there might have been some further ship upgrade that automated the process. Guess not.

I think maybe people should remember that games are meant to be fun, not some size conmparing fight on a forums. Wow.