RPGWatch Feature: Arcania Review

Great Review! I know it was hard but I think you really did represent both sides fairly, and un-biasly unlike other reviewers.

Despite my extensive background, Ultima Series, Kings Quest et all, The Gothics, Elder Scrolls, Baldur's Gate, Planescapes etc I am probaly more a casual gamer, and the market is indeed fairly big, just look at the Fable series Sales figures, though it'll probably make most "Classic" RPGers cry like little girls (because of how much money there is to be made and how obviously, companies will all go for that).

Personally, I dont think Games are ment to be taken as seriously as most Classic RPGers do, the way some of you people talk about it, you treat it as a second real life, its a bit scary sometimes how far people go. Thats the root issue between Casuals and Classics, Casuals just play to have fun for a hour or two at time then return to Real life.

I will say though while I loathe boring, difficult combat with every enemy having mountains of HP, I DO wish RPGs had more challenge in the way of PUZZLES, riddles, moving levers whatever take a page from Adventure game genre, but I dont feel difficult combat adds anything to a RPG other then boredom, most Classic players tote realism but realistically battles are and pretty much always have been brutal and fast paced,, and it only gets even more fast paced since the advent of guns, so its hardly realism to sit there fighting some wolf or grunt goblin for 20 minutes.

But I hear some of you hating on Casual RPGing but in the same breath talk about buying Fallout NV and/or Fable 3. Im wondering, why? You people seem to hate Casual RPGs, surely you know Fallout and Fable are both Casual RPGs too, seems a bit hypocritial. Regardless Its fairly obviously all RPGs are going this way. Two Worlds, Divinity 2 (even more so in Dragon Knight Saga with this "Massive Rebalance" are all going fairly casual.

I think the only saving grace for the hardline Classic RPGers is the fact undoubtedly there will come a point when Indie game studios will pop up proving the classic old school RPG games that the Major Publishers wont. They obviously wont be big budget or semi big budget but its something right?

Anyone who thinks classic RPGs are going to come out anymore aside from Risen is really deluding themselves.

Originally Posted by Rowland
@oliverh72: so how come Oblivion & Fallout 3 are two of the most successful games of all time (all genres) ?

The big Dev studios such as Bioware/Bethesda have enormous resource at their disposal so producing dumbed down offerings is both under utilising their staff & talent and false economy.

Because of what I said earlier: It's the complex ones that don't actually seem very complex (to play) which are good, and thus, successful.

Maybe some people don't think of FO3/Obl. as complex. But when you compare them to something like Arcania or even the Gothics, there's way more going on in the Bethesda and Bioware games. Branching storylines, branching dialogue, multiple classes from the start of the game.. these are hard games to make. My issue with the Gothic games has always been that they seem to try so hard to make them difficult to play - which might be what some people like, I suppose. I want a game to be exactly that - a game - and thus fun. If I want to work at something, I'll work at my job, thank you very much.

That doesn't mean that there can't be complexity though. And this is where I think things get muddled. A game can be complex - and I think the Bethesda games fit the bill here for the simple fact that they are incredibly open to the player. There's tons of systems that you can interact with - social alliances, guilds, stats, levelling, exploration, character development, companions - and yet they're quite easy to play. Whether or not they're your cup of tea is another matter. Gothic games have never been easy to play. They often make quest completion or leveling a chore. They don't hold your hand in any way, shape or form. And that part of it is fine, I guess if you like it. But sometimes that added difficulty is false in that it doesn't necessarily add to the game, in my opinion - it often makes it just annoying. A game can be difficult to succeed at but not a chore to play, and the ones that tread that fine line seem to become successful.

Or the ones with the biggest marketing budget.

Originally Posted by oliverh72
Something the Gothics have always done badly, imo, is the combat. It's always been stupidly hard at the beginning then almost ridiculously easy mid-way through the game.

Originally Posted by oliverh72
The Gothic games also have had pretty poor animation overall. The jumping and running always looked ridiculous, as did the character animations/emotes during cutscenes or conversations.

Originally Posted by oliverh72
Their [Gothic Games] UI and HUD are abysmal - even right into Risen, which was released last year.

Your above 3 quotes encapsulates why Gothics 1, 2, & 3 received such poor reviews here in the States.

But there are many RPGs out there where you could cite the same critisims. But there isn't much talk of those games. But where the Gothic games are concerned, there is still much talk about them. Why?

I personally think that because just underneath some of the 'negatives' you cited are truely great games (Gothics 1 & 2, and to a lesser extent Gothic 3) for the following reasons:

Great Story
Nothing Cookie-Cutter anywhere in the games
Branching NPC Dialogs that have actual in-game consequences
A supurb level of exploration and reward (i.e. hand placed items)
Discovery (from finding items to realizing undocumented game mechanics)
The notion of 'if you can see it, you can go there'
Great geographical layouts

It's unfortunate that Gothics 1 & 2 recieved such a beating here in the States where reviews are concerned. Us Americans really do tend to be flash before substance oriented (not all of us, but enough of us to make such critisism valid).

I'm beginning to believe that what we experienced with Gothics 1 and 2 may not be repeated again for a long time. Much like the 'world simulation' of Ultima 7 hasn't been repeated (at least not to the extent of U7) since U7 (one game came interestingly close - Arx Fatalis).

Risen was pretty close to the experience of G1 and G2, but I feel like PB really pulled their punches with that game, narrowing the scope of the game in terms of story and size of the world too much - probably in reaction to the over ambitious G3.

In the end, I really do prefer games like G1 and G2. That total lack of hand holding really adds a sense of adventure, especially to exploration. Sadly, my lack of game-time makes getting through games like G1, G2, & G3 difficult so I do appreciate games with more robust information management, such as Oblivion.

I played both oblivion and fallout 3 and have to say if it wasn't for the mods I wouldn't have enjoyed them.Oblivion was a average game with poor quest and animations with good graphics.Mods fixed both games.Fallout had the same problems as oblivion and its funny how people praise Bethesda.Each game they make has the same problems.Arcania is fun to play but in the end is a time waster but is a Gothic lite.

Originally Posted by GothicLena
Personally, I dont think Games are ment to be taken as seriously as most Classic RPGers do, the way some of you people talk about it, you treat it as a second real life, its a bit scary sometimes how far people go. Thats the root issue between Casuals and Classics, Casuals just play to have fun for a hour or two at time then return to Real life.

Yeah, I'm with you there.

Originally Posted by TheMadGamer
I personally think that because just underneath some of the 'negatives' you cited are truely great games (Gothics 1 & 2, and to a lesser extent Gothic 3) for the following reasons:

Great Story
Nothing Cookie-Cutter anywhere in the games
Branching NPC Dialogs that have actual in-game consequences
A supurb level of exploration and reward (i.e. hand placed items)
Discovery (from finding items to realizing undocumented game mechanics)
The notion of 'if you can see it, you can go there'
Great geographical layouts

Yep, I totally agree. Those are exactly the reasons I played - and mostly loved - them. I don't mean to say they're bad games - they're not. But there's so much backlash against Arcania, I just thought it could use a bit of positive feedback as to what it does well, compared to the Gothics. There's certainly a lot it can improve on, specifically the stuff you've mentioned.

I think what I'd really like to see PB do is a game that incorporates some modern design elements; a better UI, better combat, better inventory and skills management… but that also incorporates all the things they've done so well - fantastic world-building, great branching dialogs and factions, the hand crafted world that inspires such exploration.

Originally Posted by jfk
I am a bit disheartened that this review tries to justify bad design with appeal to casual players. I'm a casual gamer but what I have seen so far of Arcania is like the proverbial slap in the face.

There is no incentive for exploration, nor anything worth exploring. The world is empty, if pretty. NPCs are lifeless quest dispensers, the dialogue stupid and hollow, accompanied by amateurish voice acting. The story is boring and lacks any suspense whatsoever.

If you can read German (or can cope with a google translation) and want a honest review try this instead:
http://www.gamona.de/games/arcania-g…e,1838043.html

This game is bad. It is bad not because it's not a hardcore RPG, nor because it's not a proper Gothic. It is bad because it's simply not fun.

I've linked to this review in the news. It's exactly the type of review I don't like. I prefer it if the author stays away from strong-language-just-for-the-sake-of-it and takes a somewhat more distanced position. This article reads like a rant. Same for 4Players, but this was to be expected.

Anyone who thinks classic RPGs are going to come out anymore aside from Risen is really deluding themselves.

Spiderweb Software will bring out Avadon: The Black Fortress

There will always be mod-fanatics like Sureai with Nehrim or Oscuro or the Ailund Saga.

The Indies: Irontower-Studios or Zero-Sum for example.

And (thanx to DosBox) there is a huge rpg-back-catalog to play.

It is important to remember that a classic RPG is not the game Jowood intended to release.

Gothic was never a Classic RPG - just a great action rpg that many fun of RPG genre got to enjoy… As for what they intended - when they started the work on Arcania, based on what they presented at that time was meant to be "Arcanica - Gothic IV" a successor of Gothic… yet loosing Piranha Bytes, which as proven with "Risen" - they were the true geniuses behind the Gothic series… this task was far from their potential and when realized the situation with Gothic IV - they changed their statements about Arcania presenting it as if was meant for "casual gamer" as in "what you see is what you get" but that's definitely not what they wished for this title…

And sincerely, Arcania is mediocre even for casual gamers (badly optimized and full of bugs, mediocre story, weak game-play, awful OST and so on) , compared to fans of Gothic for which could be rightfully called an "epic fail". Seriously - being a casual gamer, doesn't mean you have the brain of a 5 year old, one that got his hands on dad's computer and it's satisfied with whatever it gets…

I'm more than sure, this game was sold "mechanically" for having "Gothic IV" in his title… If it wasn't for Steam - JaWooD would be broke by now. In other words - if Steam was in similar position 8 years ago and Heroes IV was sold by Steam - 3DO could still be around longer or even today if they had that chance to learn from their mistake…. Even Hellgate London in same position, could have bean a Smash! on Steam.

Don't have nerves of steel to play this game.

Originally Posted by Vii
And sincerely, Arcania is mediocre even for casual gamers (badly optimized and full of bugs, mediocre story, weak game-play, awful OST and so on) , compared to fans of Gothic for which could be rightfully called an "epic fail". Seriously - being a casual gamer, doesn't mean you have the brain of a 5 year old, one that got his hands on dad's computer and it's satisfied with whatever it gets…

Where are you finding bugs? I'm 10 hours into the game and haven't seen anything other then occasional physics glitch and a repeated voice over sentence. Also haven't noticed any bad optimization since it runs fine on my machine (you do have that patch installed, right?). In fact this is night and day when compared to the clusterf*** of bugs that was Gothic 3 upon release. So to me it seems like Jowood learned their lesson quite well.

Originally Posted by Vii
being a casual gamer, doesn't mean you have the brain of a 5 year old, one that got his hands on dad's computer and it's satisfied with whatever it gets…

Exactly. I resent the implication that casual gamers, simply by virtue of having less time to devote on games, can be fobbed off with an inferior product.
Shouldn't the opposite be the case? If your gaming time were limited, wouldn't you want to fill it with a rewarding experience rather than inconsequential drivel?

Originally Posted by GothicLena
I will say though while I loathe boring, difficult combat with every enemy having mountains of HP, I DO wish RPGs had more challenge in the way of PUZZLES, riddles, moving levers whatever take a page from Adventure game genre, but I dont feel difficult combat adds anything to a RPG other then boredom, most Classic players tote realism but realistically battles are and pretty much always have been brutal and fast paced,, and it only gets even more fast paced since the advent of guns, so its hardly realism to sit there fighting some wolf or grunt goblin for 20 minutes.

Huh ? I thought I was the only one here holding a similar opinion. I thought I was an alien here.

Me, since I'm coming from the Adventure games genre, very much agree. But most you know that already.

In my opinion, the part of actually playing a role should come back into RPGs.

And to me, additionally, RPGs are nothing but "more enhanced adventure games".

I'm missing the riddles and such part, too. If Sierra was still producing games, I bet that they'd do RPGs more into that direction, like that last King' Quest game, which was rather kind of a hybrid.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Huh ? I thought I was the only one here holding a similar opinion. I thought I was an alien here.

Me, since I'm coming from the Adventure games genre, very much agree. But most you know that already.

In my opinion, the part of actually playing a role should come back into RPGs.

And to me, additionally, RPGs are nothing but "more enhanced adventure games".

I'm missing the riddles and such part, too. If Sierra was still producing games, I bet that they'd do RPGs more into that direction, like that last King' Quest game, which was rather kind of a hybrid.

I'm with both of you. Let's see some meaningful loot that has PURPOSE. Perhaps they could go beyond a basic lever-puzzle and have you learn how to craft this puzzle items (or quest items, etc) into a unique tool, if you have the appropriate recipe or crafting level. Make that crafted item unlock a special level. Or unlock a quest, with other puzzle elements. Perhaps it's own storyline. All of this and more could be done and would make for a truly memorable addition to a game.

@Alrik:
If I want to play adventure games - I play one:

Releases 2010:
A New Beginning
Amnesia
So Blonde - Zurück auf die Insel
Tale of a Hero
Lost Horizon
Jolly Rover
Puzzle Agent
Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge Special Edition
Black Sails - Das Geisterschiff
Hamlet
Samorost 2
Nancy Drew: Das Phantom von Venedig
Puzzle Bots
Dark Fall Lost Souls
Alter Ego
Nancy Drew: Die Legende des Kristallschädels
Heavy Rain
Die Kunst des Mordens
CSI 5 - Tödliche Absichten (Xbox 360)

List from adventure-treff

Good review, Vox! I especially like that you hit on all the key aspects of what an RPG is or should be. It really doesn't sound like Arcania is much of an RPG. Especially disheartening is minimal character build choices - like no attribute picks at level ups, Witcher style timed combat clicks, and only 3 spells.

Nonetheless I am downloading the demo and will try it out… someday.

Had the game freeze on me three times after only 5 minutes or less of play time. I have applied the hotfix. Seems like others are have experienced the same thing. Apparently it's also common for the pirated version but mine is an legit Collector's Edition so can't say I was asking for it. Funny thing is that the demo was stable on my system. Well, think I'll just spend my time with Mafia 2 and return after new patches and drivers arrive.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Huh ? I thought I was the only one here holding a similar opinion. I thought I was an alien here.

You definitely wasn´t the only one. I like well done puzzles in my cRPGs and undoubtedly there are many others, like, iirc, DArtagnan for example.

As for the review, I´d like to add that while overall it painted a good picture of what to expect from the game and as such fulfilled the basic objective well, I didn´t like some of the sauce it came with.
I´ve found the arbitrary "casual RPGer"/"classic RPGer" division rather unfortunate and it felt like a forced way how to squeeze some plus points for the game. As some others pointed out, casual gamer doesn´t necessarily mean idiot.
Based on the mentioned shortcomings in other parts of the review, just putting in "if you don´t care about the quality of product you´re paying for, ArcaniA´s for you" would be more appropriate.
I also really don´t like the alibistic/lazy/whatever pros/cons summation which deliberately sweeps all game´s potential flaws in the name of redundant relativism. What about voice acting, totally unbalanced bows, etc?
Plus, I don´t think readers need to be constantly reminded that author is "classic RPGer" and personally I´ve found some of it a bit ironic given what author has written in his previous article ("Bottom line - based on the demo - Arcania is a no-brainer for me", etc).

Anyway, my two cents/*flames*

Originally Posted by stealth
Had the game freeze on me three times after only 5 minutes or less of play time. I have applied the hotfix. Seems like others are have experienced the same thing. Apparently it's also common for the pirated version but mine is an legit Collector's Edition so can't say I was asking for it. Funny thing is that the demo was stable on my system. Well, think I'll just spend my time with Mafia 2 and return after new patches and drivers arrive.

Turns out it was driver related. Mafia II did the same thing. Switching to one of the earlier beta releases from the 260 series fixed it. 260.63 to be exact which was also the version I ran the demo with. Guess there is a reason why they are called beta…

Originally Posted by oliverh72
I'm with both of you. Let's see some meaningful loot that has PURPOSE. Perhaps they could go beyond a basic lever-puzzle and have you learn how to craft this puzzle items (or quest items, etc) into a unique tool, if you have the appropriate recipe or crafting level. Make that crafted item unlock a special level. Or unlock a quest, with other puzzle elements. Perhaps it's own storyline. All of this and more could be done and would make for a truly memorable addition to a game.

Great comments here.

I wanted to add that if I wasn't 40 years old, married and living a busy lifestyle, I'd be more of a hardcore RPG player myself. I simply cannot consistently dedicate hours at a time to a game. Picking up a game and putting it down for a few days can be difficult when there's tons of running back and forth across huge maps, filler battles, grinding for crafting or many of the many other things that typify a "hardcore" RPG.

More on topic, this was a well-written review. I highly doubt I'll ever play it, as my computer isn't up to its super high requirements, and the Xbox version looks simply horrible (I played the demo).

Originally Posted by HiddenX
@Alrik:
If I want to play adventure games - I play one:

Releases 2010:

I do know that all … but I just don't have all of the time !

I'm currently working through my back catalogue of Adventures, and there's still a lot !

(So Blonde, Clever & Smart, The Westerner/Wanted (which I couldn't get to run on my regular PC for years now), Ceville, Sam & Max Season One etc. … )