Gothic - hardcore or softcore? (split)

Originally Posted by GothicLena
In addition to your Very Easy up to Very Hard Difficulty modes, they actually have a "Hardcore" Mode. Seems someone figured out Hardcores exist. What it does is make it require you to take care of basic needs like eating, sleeping and hydrating or else you die, and it gives ammo weight and a host of other 'hardcore' gameplay features.

I love the concept and think that is what achievements should be about. Not collecting 200 flags or feathers.

When true meaningful achievements in a well written game become activated or enabled, idealy as a loyalty reward above and beyond the norm, they should change the direction or game path than otherwise would not be seen or known about and of course it would need to be critical to the storyline.

G1 is such a game, yet the problem isn't with the game itself, it's with the gamers to understand this. Furthermore if no gamer is worthy enough to trigger these extremely difficult reward paths, then no amount of discussion will change their viewpoints.

Only by playing the game in a dedicated almost hardcore fashion with an aim to finding such a path would suffice to prove the truth, obviously it would also need to be well hidden so that no cheats or files manipulation could bypass and trigger the enablement.

Not only is it difficult to enable these hidden sequences, the topic has proved to be almost impossible to discuss on a games discussion forum that prides itself in being able to discuss any in-depth rpg gaming topic.

Using words like "loyalty" and concepts like "being worthy", really doesn't help to make the discussion fruitful.

Games are about entertainment. What KIND of experience you prefer should never make you more or less worthy, and loyalty should be completely irrelevant. But I know what the point is, and it's a good one. I just think words need to be used with greater care.

If you want to entertain the minority, you generally have to sacrifice something for the majority. If you try to please everyone equally, you will almost invariably fail.

This "hardcore setting" approach is one way to make it work, but it takes a HUGE effort to design a game so that balance is maintained throughout - or it takes truly clever design.

Looking Glass did it really well with Thief - because the core gameplay remained intact, no matter what difficulty you chose, and yet the higher difficulty levels provided just the kind of challenge most "hardcore" gamers are looking for.

But the larger in scope your game is, the harder it becomes to achieve this kind of thing.

I haven't played New Vegas, but it sounds like it might work as well. We'll see. Personally, I don't believe for a second it will be "hardcore" or "enthusiastic" enough to please me thoroughly as much as a truly "hardcore" Fallout would.

Also, though I'm quite the enthusiast - I never cared for games that annoyed me. I don't see the appeal of having to eat or drink, unless the game is made as a survival experience from the design document and up. I just want a game that makes me think and gives me a lot of hard choices - things like that. Hunger/thirst almost always strike me as superfluous elements that get in the way of a great experience. It's a balance thing, really, and depends fully on the implementation.

Fallout would benefit from having "realism" elements like this, but it needs to be done well. Otherwise it might as well require me to go to the bathroom, or to keep clean to avoid infection, etc.

RE:- -> I just want a game that makes me think and gives me a lot of hard choices <-

oh!…absolutely. They don't come any harder than G1.

From my own actual experience which was recognised by the head of PB who once said "Wulf, i really hope you can solve this seamingly unsolveable puzzle" which implies G1 is in effect a puzzle crpg. Indeed the whole game is a puzzle using subliminal suggestion, hints or better, "inuendo" without hard facts to prevent the true concept goal becoming a giveaway.

The riddles are double-cyphers and although "common logic" needs to be applied to realise the meanings, it then has to be re-applied to the fantasy storyline logic in progression, this is the hardest part.

The "loyalty" bit referred to in-game loyalty, alignment and quest approach eg: completion *out of loyalty* or *within loyalty*.

Being *worthy* is fundamental to the whole G1 concept as it is actually being *unworthy* that's required, eg: "how can a man so simple and unworthy recieve such a great legacy"

Originally Posted by Wulf
RE:- -> I just want a game that makes me think and gives me a lot of hard choices <-

oh!…absolutely. They don't come any harder than G1.

From my own actual experience which was recognised by the head of PB who once said "Wulf, i really hope you can solve this seamingly unsolveable puzzle" which implies G1 is in effect a puzzle crpg. Indeed the whole game is a puzzle using subliminal suggestion, hints or better, "inuendo" without hard facts to prevent the true concept goal becoming a giveaway.

The riddles are double-cyphers and although "common logic" needs to be applied to realise the meanings, it then has to be re-applied to the fantasy storyline logic in progression, this is the hardest part.

The "loyalty" bit referred to in-game loyalty, alignment and quest approach eg: completion *out of loyalty* or *within loyalty*.

Being *worthy* is fundamental to the whole G1 concept as it is actually being *unworthy* that's required, eg: "how can a man so simple and unworthy recieve such a great legacy"

I'm not sure I understand much of that

I played Gothic at release - and I certainly don't remember much about it that was particularly subtle. It was a plausible setting and a wonderful set of low-key characters, but I'd be interested to know about any "hidden" messages - if we're not talking trivial stuff like the relaxed approach to drugs, or the dangers of being fanatical (the Sleeper) etc.

I found achievements in Dragon Age - by chance.

I always get a "what was that ???" look when I get one.

One could also try to "collect them all", but I think this would be distracting from the fun a little bit - at least to me. Finding them by pure chance is "funnier" to me.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I'm not sure I understand much of that

I played Gothic at release - and I certainly don't remember much about it that was particularly subtle. It was a plausible setting and a wonderful set of low-key characters, but I'd be interested to know about any "hidden" messages - if we're not talking trivial stuff like the relaxed approach to drugs, or the dangers of being fanatical (the Sleeper) etc.

Wulf is referring to the myth of the Chromanin questline (normally the Chromanin thing ends rather unsatisfactory). The myth has been around since RPGDot.

Every post he has in this thread refers specifically to this old myth about something so hidden noone can find it. Personally I've completed it nearly as many times as he has and never seen anything that indicates a hidden quest/point/etc.

You can find some more info in the Watch Gothic forum as Wulf has mentioned this in several threads. The best source (RPGDot) outside of Wulf's own notes is gone I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Maylander
Wulf is referring to the myth of the Chromanin questline (normally the Chromanin thing ends rather unsatisfactory). The myth has been around since RPGDot.

Every post he has in this thread refers specifically to this old myth about something so hidden noone can find it. Personally I've completed it nearly as many times as he has and never seen anything that indicates a hidden quest/point/etc.

You can find some more info in the Watch Gothic forum as Wulf has mentioned this in several threads. The best source (RPGDot) outside of Wulf's own notes is gone I'm afraid.

Hmmm…. I see

A link to the riddles (Chromanin):
http://almanach.worldofgothic.com/in…%28Writings%29

There's definitely a riddle there, though I'm not sure the official answer has ever been found. I doubt it, as most people overlook the whole Chromanin thing. Wulf might just be right, but it sounds a little far fetched in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Maylander
A link to the riddles (Chromanin):
http://almanach.worldofgothic.com/in…%28Writings%29

There's definitely a riddle there, though I'm not sure the official answer has ever been found. I doubt it, as most people overlook the whole Chromanin thing. Wulf might just be right, but it sounds a little far fetched in my opinion.

Interesting… I vaaaaaaaaguely remember some of that stuff from the game, but I probably just shrugged it off as some kind of artifact I'd never find

It strikes me as a red herring, like what I used to do to tease my players, running some of my old DnD campaigns, that were always improvised.

I love games that can go either way , dedicated role play or no brain hack and slash , deep lore that it's knowledge isn't required to enjoy the game .
Actions and consequences are okay but i only think of them on my second go , if the game is enough interesting to me .
I always play on the most ridiculously easy level , it isn't difficulty that makes a game and/or the gamer hardcore , i mean spending 3 hours playing Morrowind only to read books and test spells is hardcore , trying to kill a bull netch with a fork is not, it is just stupid .
I tried to figure out combat and map use in Gothic 3 for hours , i also spent 2 hours trying to kill "shy deer" with the stupid bow and epically failed , then i just gave up , G3 isn't hardcore it is freaking stupid.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
I found achievements in Dragon Age - by chance.

I always get a "what was that ???" look when I get one.

One could also try to "collect them all", but I think this would be distracting from the fun a little bit - at least to me. Finding them by pure chance is "funnier" to me.

I was so surprised when i saw

CORRUPTED

NEW ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED

wtf!

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Using words like "loyalty" and concepts like "being worthy", really doesn't help to make the discussion fruitful.

Games are about entertainment. What KIND of experience you prefer should never make you more or less worthy, and loyalty should be completely irrelevant. But I know what the point is, and it's a good one. I just think words need to be used with greater care.

If you want to entertain the minority, you generally have to sacrifice something for the majority. If you try to please everyone equally, you will almost invariably fail.

This "hardcore setting" approach is one way to make it work, but it takes a HUGE effort to design a game so that balance is maintained throughout - or it takes truly clever design.

Looking Glass did it really well with Thief - because the core gameplay remained intact, no matter what difficulty you chose, and yet the higher difficulty levels provided just the kind of challenge most "hardcore" gamers are looking for.

But the larger in scope your game is, the harder it becomes to achieve this kind of thing.

I haven't played New Vegas, but it sounds like it might work as well. We'll see. Personally, I don't believe for a second it will be "hardcore" or "enthusiastic" enough to please me thoroughly as much as a truly "hardcore" Fallout would.

Also, though I'm quite the enthusiast - I never cared for games that annoyed me. I don't see the appeal of having to eat or drink, unless the game is made as a survival experience from the design document and up. I just want a game that makes me think and gives me a lot of hard choices - things like that. Hunger/thirst almost always strike me as superfluous elements that get in the way of a great experience. It's a balance thing, really, and depends fully on the implementation.

Fallout would benefit from having "realism" elements like this, but it needs to be done well. Otherwise it might as well require me to go to the bathroom, or to keep clean to avoid infection, etc.

I have to agree with you, playing 'hardcore' is the same thing as playing 'casual' there should be no extra reward for either playstyle, afterall the reward is in itself, no?

As for fallout, it actually seems to work, I play on very easy as with most games because I really dont care about combat but from initial impressions, Very Hard+Hardcore is giving many hardcore players a good run.

But Its my opinion the design of the game was to appease the hardcore old school Fallout crowd, it has that feel to me and some of the basic changes tend to lend more toward the hardcore crowd, ie perks now every 2 levels, no raising stats after character creation without very limited and specialized implants which come with their own caveats. In the end, it doesnt matter too much on Very Easy, but you really feel these changes while playing on harder settings.

Originally Posted by Tragos
I was so surprised when i saw

CORRUPTED

NEW ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED

wtf!

I know how you felt.
Where we come from that's something you achieve without even trying

Definitely a worrisome moment that turned to a funny moment (not sure if it was intentional by the designers).

Originally Posted by Wulf
"Wulf, i really hope you can solve this seamingly unsolveable puzzle"

so, did you solve it?

Please don't start with the Chromanin thing again. There's no secret storyline/items/characters etc.. involved in that.

I remember some people going as far as digging through the game code to see if there was anything hidden. There wasn't.

Red Herring

Reminds of the not so subtle artifact named "Red Herring" in Starflight. You found this on the surface of some planet. It was a very expensive artifact that would have eased my money troubles if I could get it and bring it back to the ship. However that's the rub, you can't pick it up. It weighs too much.

I was just a kid at the time and had no idea what a "red herring" was and after I tried everything possible to get this thing into my vehicle I asked my mom for help. That's when she told me the meaning of red herring. I was like 8 or 9 and you bet your bottom dollar I used red herrings in the games I would create for D&D (Never really played these setting with anyone, but still made them I loved the whole idea behind a red herring for some reason)

Sorry about the trip down memory lane. The Chromanin thing brought a lot of memories of learning what that was. BTW, Chromanin is most definitly a red herring. If anyone thinks different then have I got an artifact for you that will make playing Starflight a breeze

Yes, the likelihood and viability of a hoax far exceeds the likelihood of content protected by a pact of secrecy, hidden so deep inside the code modders can't find it, and so difficult to trigger that only one man has reported to have seen it in the years since Gothic was released.

I think the Chromanin quest line is pretty cool still. It has a special feel to it. Perhaps not all journeys have to end with you finding all the answers and receiving 500 gold coins and a +3 sword of smiting.

As for whether Gothic is hardcore or not, it depends on your definition of hardcore. I myself would probably say it is, as I think it requires some effort to get into, and doesn't hold the player's hand too much. Things aren't dumbed down or overly simplified. Maybe this makes the game more "hardcore" when compared to a "casual" game, which is easy to get into but may not offer much depth. Anyway, I could be completely wrong, as I'm not an experienced user of the word "hardcore".

What's a "softcore RPG" by the way?

Kay

Originally Posted by KayAU
What's a "softcore RPG" by the way?

I'd say that would be a casual RPG

Originally Posted by KayAU
I think the Chromanin quest line is pretty cool still. It has a special feel to it.

Definitely

Originally Posted by KayAU
What's a "softcore RPG" by the way?

When you only see boobs.