Temple of Elemental Evil

I just picked this up from GOG a week or so ago and have been messing around with it. I've installed the Circle of Eight Mod and fix- pack and have created dozens of characters and played some of the opening bits to get a taste of how the game works.

Anyone want to share any thoughts or discuss this game? I can't find much about it here at RPG Watch, other than a brief mention once in a while in a comment.

Some initial thoughts: The Hommlet villager quests are almost laughably dull. I pursued the one match-making quest to its end, converting people's religions and whatnot, thinking something interesting would happen. Ha. And it took about an hour real-time running back and forth. The Circle of Eight add-on "Welkwood Bog" area is much more fun, but I didn't understand what was happening, or else I missed some crucial info. What's the story behind the various monsters that appear, threaten you, then disappear? I think that happens several times in this area, but I never found out what it was about. I finished the quest, killing the bad guy and his minions, but there wasn't any info about this.

I then went to the Meadows area and got my ass kicked. I'm at the moat house now and having a much easier time, though cheating with my stats has likely helped… maybe too much. I'm seriously thinking about starting over with less maxxed out characters.

The random encounters are a bit silly. Sometimes it's two skeletons. Another time it was six brown bears that just steamrolled me. It's quirky, and I'm keeping tons of saves, but a bit silly.

Does anyone know what items like helmets, chain gloves or boots do? Their description shows no benefit to AC, and I don't see anything about reducing criticals, or any benefit at all.

I know it's notoriously buggy, but the Co8 pack allegedly fixes many of them. What should I look out for? I am not using quick save or auto save.

Any comments, thoughts, opinions or otherwise are much appreciated. No giant spoilers please, though. General mid spoilers might be OK though. Thanks.

The game is an excellent tactical combat simulator with an absolutely minimal story element.

It's hard until you learn the ropes of the 3.5 combat system, and I remember having some difficulty with the first battles - because I didn't really min/max at that point. Since then, though, I've become an obsessive min/max'er (WoW did this to me), and I find most games of this nature somewhat easy after the initial investment of learning the rules and intricacies.

Lots of party combo options, and I tend to favor ranged sneak attacks and dual wielding. Though a simple greatsword fighter with cleave/great cleave focusing on strength is always nice.

If you're a PnP roleplayer - it will also have a terrific nostalgia factor, and I remember really liking some of the music as well.

But as a thorough CRPG experience, it doesn't really work. I can recommend lots of great ones, but I'm sure you've played most of them.

I'm really liking it so far, maybe more than I thought I would. I always prefer the beginnings of these games. I enjoy having limited abilities and lose interest when games become gigantic spell-casting carnivals… which is probably why I STILL haven't finished BG2, even after several attempts.

I'm not finding it overly difficult. But it requires being extremely methodic. With such low level characters you're basically out of spells after most fights, which requires a trip back to town between each one. Way too many random monsters when trying to rest, though I suppose that can help you grind out a level or two.

More major irritations are monsters getting blocked from view by characters or terrain (where your characters should be able to see them… but they're blocked to the guy behind the keyboard). Another issue is when trying to attack, sometimes it's impossible to tell if you're close enough or not. And if you try, and you are indeed too far away, you lose a turn, which is stupid. I've found a bug (I think) where my cleric's morning star (listed as piercing and bludgeoning damage) is getting resisted by zombies (who come up as having resistance to slashing damage). Makes me wonder how many of these "behind the scene" bugs there are.

Originally Posted by Ovenall
I'm really liking it so far, maybe more than I thought I would. I always prefer the beginnings of these games. I enjoy having limited abilities and lose interest when games become gigantic spell-casting carnivals… which is probably why I STILL haven't finished BG2, even after several attempts.

I know what you mean, though I tend to enjoy games with decent progression paths. 3.5 has a very nice and steady way of moving your characters forward - and I always focus on characters with physical damage. I'm not really a mage/cleric player - so I tend to go for the simple spells, like Fireball and buffs

I'm not finding it overly difficult. But it requires being extremely methodic. With such low level characters you're basically out of spells after most fights, which requires a trip back to town between each one. Way too many random monsters when trying to rest, though I suppose that can help you grind out a level or two.

I wouldn't say it was that difficult either. There ARE a lot of grindy combats in the game, though, and it sort of reminds me of Wizardy in that way. You'll have to love the combat system to get through it

More major irritations are monsters getting blocked from view by characters or terrain (where your characters should be able to see them… but they're blocked to the guy behind the keyboard). Another issue is when trying to attack, sometimes it's impossible to tell if you're close enough or not. And if you try, and you are indeed too far away, you lose a turn, which is stupid. I've found a bug (I think) where my cleric's morning star (listed as piercing and bludgeoning damage) is getting resisted by zombies (who come up as having resistance to slashing damage). Makes me wonder how many of these "behind the scene" bugs there are.

It's been a while since I last played it, but I seem to recall the color of circles (or something) indicating what was within range and attackable. It adhered pretty strictly to the 3.5 rules, which means you can only make a "standard" attack after moving and not a full attack. Certain kinds of attacks require you to expend a full turn. Also, I think they implemented special movies like charge, which can be a big help in some fights.

Exploiting the attack of opportunity rules is also key in the early fights.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
T I didn't really min/max at that point.

What is min/max?

Character optimization, bn. Combining stats, skills, feats, weapons, and such into the peak killing machine.

Similar to Powergaming, if I understand it correctly.

Min/Max refers to minimizing unecessary stats and maximizing useful stats for the build you have in mind. Creating dump stats - like Charisma, for a non-talky fighter character - and setting them to 3, so you have more points for strength, or what have you.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Exploiting the attack of opportunity rules is also key in the early fights.

Also, learn to leverage the 2 foot step free move.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Also, learn to leverage the 2 foot step free move.

That's "5-foot step" and yeah, very true

I'm getting my ToEE confused with my ballroom dancing. Always happens.

Not sure I want to know about that

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Min/Max refers to minimizing unecessary stats and maximizing useful stats for the build you have in mind. Creating dump stats - like Charisma, for a non-talky fighter character - and setting them to 3, so you have more points for strength, or what have you.

This is exactly what I call "Power-Gaming".

Here in Germany, it's advocates call the direct opposite "Bauer-Gaming", from "Bauer" = "Farmer".

Quite of the most adored so called RPGs by so called RPGers are games dedicated to munckins.

RPGs have been digging their own grave from start, one could say.

"Meanwhile… Back in the real world."

I remember the interviews with the developers before its release and was so excited because it was going to be D&D was meant to be played on your PC. Not only that, I would get to play through a 1st edition module only hinted at in the author's notes from T1 "The Village of Hommlet" I had bought in the 80's. I couldn't wait. Not only that, Troika vowed to release the G-D-Q modules as well. I was in heaven…

Then it came out frought with issues. I loved the graphics, especially the pre-rendered backgrounds. I was seeing the locations described in T1 on my monitor. The opening scenarios were a neat innovation based on the alignment of your party, but some were pretty shallow. A lack of portraits in character generation was a disappointment, no game-breaker though. However, the NPCs and quests were clearly not complete. The turn based combat was nice, but also had its share of issues.

Suffice it to say this game broke my heart. Sure, patches were released, but this thing was broken with a capital B. Then Troika went belly-up and my hope for a redeeming sequel went with it. I have considered playing it again but would only use user patches that fix the game. User content mods are often disappointing or downright silly.

But for under $10 you probably can't go wrong. I rushed out and bought it for $49.99 on the release date.

EvilManagedCare-

Check it out again. I've been playing with the Co8 fixes for several hours now and am through the moat house dungeon, and I've also played through the beginning a few times with different characters. I've seen a couple issues, but no real bugs at all. The role playing part is definitely a low point, but the battles are great, as is the very, very old school D&D feel. Without giving too much away, the giant crayfish hidden in the water really brought me back to 1983 table top days in a way no other CRPG has ever done. So far at least, this game nails the simpler, old days of D&D. I even love the somewhat generic setting, as it feels like a real beginning in a module I bought back at the hobby shop when I was 12.

Maybe it falls apart from here, but I'm having lots of fun with it.

Also, I love the simple, clean interface. I never want to see another clichéd yellowed-paper with phony "Olde English" typefaces in a CRPG. And the music is nice and moody without being the typical orchestral dreck that 99% of these games and movies use. The tiny little characters are charming looking and nicely animated, and the backgrounds are gloomy but nicely put together. I even like the way the map is revealed in dungeons when you're sneaking around.

Roleplay really comes into the game when you go to the other town and also enter the temple proper. I think the differences for an evil playthrough are rather signficant.

Indeed, the game is actually worth at least two playthroughs, due to the differences between evil & good.

Overall, I find ToEE to be troikas least shining gem. It i still a gem, but it could have done with a lot more polish. Apart from the bugs & a slightly unfinished state, this game feels like the perfect game for anyone who agrees with Gary Gygax's views on roleplaying (at least his views during the late 70's up to and including the 80's). It is a tactical dungeon crawler, and a rather good one at that. The game system is (apart from a few bugs) very faithful to its pen & paper counterpart, to the degree that it can be frustrating for anyone who does not have at least a basic understanding of D&D 3.5.
I've never been a pen & paper D&D fan (I much prefer games like Vampire, Eon, Blue Planet, Fading suns, Mutant, Kult, Call of cthulhu and so on), so I don't know how faithful it actually is to its source material (considering it does not take place in one of the standard D&D settings), but from what I've heard, it is faithful enough to be an enjoyable nostalgia trip.

Originally Posted by Fnord
Indeed, the game is actually worth at least two playthroughs, due to the differences between evil & good.

Overall, I find ToEE to be troikas least shining gem. It i still a gem, but it could have done with a lot more polish. Apart from the bugs & a slightly unfinished state, this game feels like the perfect game for anyone who agrees with Gary Gygax's views on roleplaying (at least his views during the late 70's up to and including the 80's). It is a tactical dungeon crawler, and a rather good one at that. The game system is (apart from a few bugs) very faithful to its pen & paper counterpart, to the degree that it can be frustrating for anyone who does not have at least a basic understanding of D&D 3.5.
I've never been a pen & paper D&D fan (I much prefer games like Vampire, Eon, Blue Planet, Fading suns, Mutant, Kult, Call of cthulhu and so on), so I don't know how faithful it actually is to its source material (considering it does not take place in one of the standard D&D settings), but from what I've heard, it is faithful enough to be an enjoyable nostalgia trip.

Would you clarify what you meant by the text I've italicized and emboldened?

The Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in the Greyhawk setting. Greyhawk was created by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax. It is the setting most closely identified with the development of D&D. On the 30th annniversary of Dungeons & Dragons in 2004 it was ranked the 4th greatest Dungeons & Dragons adventure of all time by Dungeon magazine. Dungeons & Dragons campaign settings , World of Greyhawk

I found the pc game, based on the original T1-4 module The Temple of Elemental Evil faithfull enough to the original source material that it could be referred to as a walkthrough/used as a guide. Not that I would do such a thing.. at least not while young minds were watching

Ubbax
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek instead what they sought" - Lao Tzu