First Person RPG's - Help me List Em

Then I'll chip in with The void, one of the more unique games out there. Often categorized as an adventure game, although I really don't agree with this categorization, it has very little in common with AGs (it does by the way have more RPG elements than Half life 2). Though the only reason why I mention it is because I think the game deserves more attention, and because I want to encourage developers to make more games that strays away from the beaten path.

Originally Posted by Fnord
Then I'll chip in with The void, one of the more unique games out there. Often categorized as an adventure game, although I really don't agree with this categorization, it has very little in common with AGs (it does by the way have more RPG elements than Half life 2). T

I spent a lot of time playing it as a minigame in Daggerfall

Originally Posted by JDR13
If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

It is all subjective.

What I still dont understand is why people submit lists of games for a genre on a site posters consider it to be all subjective?

To the OP, RPGs are here, on this site, all subjective. That is your own subjectivity that makes a game a RPG.
It is very hard for anyone to add to your list as their options are unlikely to fit your own subjectivity.

Spell Force be with you though.

How a bout an older game called "Strife." IIRC, it had rpg-elements.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
Albion 1995

I´d add the game is a 2D/3D hybrid and, as far as I remember, leaning more to the top down 2D side. Also, while I think it´s a great game overall, I consider the way its 1st person was implemented to be terrible (and the game´s biggest weakness).

Originally Posted by JDR13
If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

You never answered my question. Whats your definition of an RPG?

A few RPG elements - meaning at least 3 - 3 RPG elements are not enough for you to make an RPG?

What RPG elements do you consider important for a game to be called an RPG?

I want your answer because I'm trying to understand how you can say some games on my initial list above are not RPG's.

Personally I know it's all subjective, and there are no hard and fast rules. You can find games the devs even said are PRG's and they do not share all the same RPG elements with other known PRG games.

ChienAboyeur, I don't think I'm being to obtuse in my RPG requirements for this list of "Modern First Person RPG's" I ask 2 things, that it be First Person and have enough RPG elements to be generally considered an RPG. I realize there will be some differences of opinion as to if a game is really an RPG or not, but I'm o.k. with that. I want folks to throw those games out there also because even if it only has 2 RPG elements, it may still be a fun game worth playing.

Thanks for the answers so far folks, please keep em coming.

Originally Posted by Icefire
How a bout an older game called "Strife." IIRC, it had rpg-elements.

I remember playing Strife back in the day and loved it. I wish there was a modern remake.

Originally Posted by Dark Phoenix
You never answered my question. Whats your definition of an RPG?

A few RPG elements - meaning at least 3 - 3 RPG elements are not enough for you to make an RPG?

What RPG elements do you consider important for a game to be called an RPG?

I want your answer because I'm trying to understand how you can say some games on my initial list above are not RPG's.

Personally I know it's all subjective, and there are no hard and fast rules. You can find games the devs even said are PRG's and they do not share all the same RPG elements with other known PRG games.

You've already answered the question. If you know that it's all subjective then why bother asking others what their definition of an RPG is?

You obviously have very loose requirements if you're going to include games like GTA. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's definitely an example of something that I wouldn't include.

Or Hellgate: London - that's as much an RPG as Doom ! One of the few games in which I couldn't click 'next' on the quest dialog fast enough.

Originally Posted by Drithius
Or Hellgate: London - that's as much an RPG as Doom ! One of the few games in which I couldn't click 'next' on the quest dialog fast enough.

Um … no. Hell, Doom is very limited even for a FPS! Hellgate had loads of problems, but it did offer RPG-lite progression typical of many action-RPGs.

I suppose I have a narrower definition of RPG, because i'd not include many of those game on your list.

To my mind, an RPG:
-Allows the creation and use of many types of characters. Pre rolled characters, such as in Half-Life, invalidates that game as an RPG.
-Provides character growth during the game, in such a way that the player chooses the growth path of the character.
-Provides different ways to complete the game.
-Provides multiple activities not necessarily related to the main quest.
- Choices and consequences, with the ability to change the flow of the game.
-Replayability: Depending on the type of character the player uses, different paths, quests, and outcomes will be available.

And, increasingly, the ability to play the game in a meaningful way WITHOUT touching the main quest. Bethesda games are famous for this.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Um … no. Hell, Doom is very limited even for a FPS! Hellgate had loads of problems, but it did offer RPG-lite progression typical of many action-RPGs.

Doom is limited? Maybe by today's standards, but that game blew people's minds in 1993.

Originally Posted by JDR13
You've already answered the question. If you know that it's all subjective then why bother asking others what their definition of an RPG is?

You obviously have very loose requirements if you're going to include games like GTA. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but that's definitely an example of something that I wouldn't include.

Not what I wrote. I wrote that for some, as shown on this site, RGP genre is all subjective. And I found weird that people for whom RPG is all subjective come up with comments like

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

The whole question for the all subjective tribe is to know whether or not they can live up to their standards. I cant answer that question for them, just observe if their action agree with their words. So far, not the case.

My position not being that RPG genre is all subjective, that is not possible to tell what a RPG is, I am certain not on the same wagon as the all subjective tribe. And indeed, I can unarbitrarily exclude games from the list.

Originally Posted by Jhari
I suppose I have a narrower definition of RPG, because i'd not include many of those game on your list.

To my mind, an RPG:
-Allows the creation and use of many types of characters. Pre rolled characters, such as in Half-Life, invalidates that game as an RPG.
-Provides character growth during the game, in such a way that the player chooses the growth path of the character.
-Provides different ways to complete the game.
-Provides multiple activities not necessarily related to the main quest.
- Choices and consequences, with the ability to change the flow of the game.
-Replayability: Depending on the type of character the player uses, different paths, quests, and outcomes will be available.

And, increasingly, the ability to play the game in a meaningful way WITHOUT touching the main quest. Bethesda games are famous for this.

You just list some elements that are deemed to be RPG elements. As shown multiple times on this site, the end is known.

As other genres evolve out on their own, they will include those elements, getting you to include those games as RPG genre needs to be sustained.

The first point is totally absurd. Pre-rolled or self rolled characters do not exclude or guarantee role playing games. Tournaments were practised on pre-rolled characters for the main cause it makes assessment of the RP performance easier (because that is what a tournament is about)

The other elements might be included in other genres to satisfy requirements internal to this genre. ISS Pro (or FIFA x) has already many (if not all) of your elements. You should list them as RPG by your own criteria.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
Not what I wrote.

That's great, except no one was quoting you, and no one gives a shit what you wrote.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Doom is limited? Maybe by today's standards, but that game blew people's minds in 1993.

Oh, absolutely agree - great gameplay and level design that holds up when played using one of the newer front-ends with high-res packs. But to call any (however limited) action-RPG 'less of a RPG than Doom' is seriously laughable.

The old 'what makes a RPG' thing can go in circles, with some claiming that Gothic isn't one since you can't create your own character, and others willing to included Plants vs. Zombies since there is clear progression over the game.

I'm pretty forgiving in terms of what is/is not a RPG, but in general I think that a developer/publisher has a core genre target 99% of the time, so why not go with that? Of course, then we get Bioware calling Modern Warfare a RPG to justify their braindead moves with Dragon Age and Mass Effect …

Originally Posted by JDR13
That's great, except no one was quoting you, and no one gives a shit what you wrote.

Quoted or unquoted, it does not change it is not what I wrote. Never called for a misquotation by telling not what I wrote.

And primarly, it changes nothing for the quote I made

If you're going to consider something an RPG just because it shares a few common elements, then there's almost no limit to what you can list as an RPG.

The all subjective tribe must come to terms that all subjective has one consequence, any game can be RPG. Or explain how not.

Originally Posted by txa1265

The old 'what makes a RPG' thing can go in circles, with some claiming that Gothic isn't one since you can't create your own character, and others willing to included Plants vs. Zombies since there is clear progression over the game.

The question is flawed. So the risk is high to get flawed answers.

The very idea of RPG elements that could exclusively define the RPG genre is baseless. Many ways to achieve a result and a successful way to achieve is successful.

No matter the genre, anytime there is a demand to represent differences among NPCs/PCs, a scale is welcome and a known way to achieve success. Anytime there is a demand for including the effects of experience, points distribution is welcome and a known way to achieve success.

No recipe to RPG and even for recipes, it might boil down to only one or two required elements. After that, the rest is open.

So yes, the discussion can go endlessly. And it is proper to discussions that are designed to go endlessly. So is the discussion on what makes a RPG.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
Quoted or unquoted, it does not change it is not what I wrote. Never called for a misquotation by telling not what I wrote.

And primarly, it changes nothing for the quote I made

WHAT QUOTE? JDR didn't quote you. You just popped in and said that's not what you said.

Let me try to understand this: You quoted JDR telling him that's not what you said, however he was not talking to you, so why quote him telling him you didn't say that when he wasn't even talking to you directly?……oh great now I have a headache. I'm done. Maybe stay away from JDR for the time being. He bites

A result of a very loooooong discussion about crpg-elements at rpgdot and rpgwatch is the so called crpg-meter:


CRPG-Meter for Drakensang

CRPG-Meter for The Witcher

CRPG-Meter for Geneforge 4

CRPG-Meter for Gothic 3

It is far from perfect, but you can measure the crpg-ingredients of a given game well.