BG vs BG:EE

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path
lolwut
I personally wouldn't start over again because IMO BG isn't such a strong game that it warrants multiple playthroughs.

Well, you'd be wrong here I think.
From a roleplaying point of view, I'd have to fundamentally disagree with this point by simply countering that the party customisation options in BG make it very replayable. In fact, it's one of essential virtues that it has over its much more celebrated sequel.
The interactive banter of having Tiax, Quayle, Safana, Alora and other lesser known npcs is definitely something that warrants multiple playthroughs.

Also JDR - your pussy point is a bit…daft. I expect better from you mate.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister
Well, you'd be wrong here I think.
From a roleplaying point of view, I'd have to fundamentally disagree with this point by simply countering that the party customisation options in BG make it very replayable. In fact, it's one of essential virtues that it has over its much more celebrated sequel.
The interactive banter of having Tiax, Quayle, Safana, Alora and other lesser known npcs is definitely something that warrants multiple playthroughs.

Uhm… you find BG more replayable than BG2?

Of course, yes, it has a few more recruitable NPC's. That doesn't go very far though. IIRC Minsc is the tank with the highest strength in the game, so he's an obvious choice, especially if you play a good or neutral party. Unless you really want Edwin, for which there's less reason in this game than in BG2 (where a single class mage is quite powerful). A dualed cleric/ mage or cleric/ thief like Tiax and Quayle are also pretty underwhelming on the low levels of BG (actually I'd avoid most multiclasses, maybe with the exception of Fighter/ Thief). The problem is exacerbated by the fact that really playing (i.e. roleplaying) an evil party is a) given less opportunity than in BG2 and b) quite underpowered, also compared to BG2. In BG, with your low levels, you very much depend on buying goods/ services, so the lower prices with a high rep really help. Also getting hunted down by mercenaries is a very real threat. In BG2, playing evil was a satisfying and powerful experience, in contrast.

Then there are the many more instances of choices you can make in BG2, and the sheer amount of quests so you can really pick and choose. In BG, I'd recommend gobbling up any XP you can find, including looking for lost kitties with an evil party.

If you're into party interaction/ banter, I'd also recommend BG2.

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path
Uhm… you find BG more replayable than BG2?

Of course, yes, it has a few more recruitable NPC's. That doesn't go very far though. IIRC Minsc is the tank with the highest strength in the game, so he's an obvious choice, especially if you play a good or neutral party.

Wrong, again. That would be Kagain. So the issue of who the tank should be is not so obvious or cut and dry as you try to make out. There's this thing called "roleplaying" where you don't necessarily powergame, but rather choose a particular combination of characters based upon a party configuration idea or even an alignment theme as you indicate. For me, BG's party options are greater than BG2. Just a fact, I'm afraid.

Unless you really want Edwin, for which there's less reason in this game than in BG2

Yes, I really liked Edwin. But this "reason" you speak of doesn't make sense. It's easy to create one in the interest of roleplaying. To be honest, I've never finished a playthrough of BG with Dynaheir all the way through, so that's on my list for another…replay. (Which just reinforces my original point.)
The rest of your points on BG2 simply muddy the waters and get away from what this conversation is actually about, but let's just say I've replayed BG2+ToB enough to find the party options in first game more enjoyable overall.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister
Wrong, again. That would be Kagain.

No, I looked it up and I'm right (again ). Kagain has the highest CON, not STR.

There's this thing called "roleplaying" where you don't necessarily powergame, but rather choose a particular combination of characters based upon a party configuration idea or even an alignment theme as you indicate. For me, BG's party options are greater than BG2. Just a fact, I'm afraid.

No no no. Again, what game people play in their heads isn't the point here. You like to gimp yourself with underpowered chars and party setups? Good for you, but there are a lot of people who wish for balance in a game's systems and won't accept being punished for an alternative playstyle. I realize that this is subjective, but we don't know into what category our OP falls, and I can only speak for myself.

Yes, I really liked Edwin. But this "reason" you speak of doesn't make sense. It's easy to create one in the interest of roleplaying.

This seems to relate to what I've said above. You have a great LARPing reason for taking Edwin? Ok, but a lot of people don't swing that way, and for them, he'll just be a weak choice for a companion (and therefore not a real option).

The rest of your points on BG2 simply muddy the waters and get away from what this conversation is actually about

No, YOU were talking about replayability. That's exactly what it's about. If you can refute these points, plz do so.

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path
No, I looked it up and I'm right (again ). Kagain has the highest CON, not STR.

A minor error, I misread your post and so I tilt my hat to you sir. Yet unfortunately it doesn't dilute the fact that Kagain is more than a match for Minsc for leading party tank, as are other fighters if you choose to play that way. You've just got to stop thinking in such dogmatic powergaming terms mate. Liberate your playstyle and live a little.

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path
No no no. Again, what game people play in their heads isn't the point here. You like to gimp yourself with underpowered chars and party setups?

Sure, why not? If it makes it interesting and a challenge. The "game" in one's mind is everything and people choose to play it as they wish. I'm simply indicating to you that power-gaming isn't the only way to play. What you call gimping, I call a challenge or taking a role-playing choice. The characters interactions and banter are central to making combat different and interesting and so why the need to maximize everything every time? One misses out on part of the fun I reckon.

Thus, again I would argue npc variety and construction for role-playing reasons or whatever personal predilection, make BG very replayable.

As an aside: An hilarious example of someone creating their own unique challenge in Icewind Dale for example: A chap named Midget Gems on my ol' forum haunt (Ironworks) made this wonderful Let's Play with a Gnome themed party. The additional and insane catch was, that he tried to avoid levelling up at all through the game and simply use the game mechanics, spells, abilities and his sheer wit etc (and naturally some reloading) in order to survive. He got amazingly far and the story was quite amusing to read…I should fish out a link to it at some point.

Edwin's megalomanical antics and banter with other characters is easy reason enough to take him, but I take your point that he may not be the taste of everyone.
Your LARping reference is a throwaway line and not relevant in the slightest though. This has nothing to do with some Society of Creative Anachronistics.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister
A minor error, I misread your post and so I tilt my hat to you sir. Yet unfortunately it doesn't dilute the fact that Kagain is more than a match for Minsc for leading party tank, as are other fighters if you choose to play that way. You've just got to stop thinking in such dogmatic powergaming terms mate. Liberate your playstyle and live a little.

Kagain not only has a lower STR so he'll miss even more often than usual in low level AD&D combat, but he also has a low DEX so even in a defensive role he's worse than Minsc. Those two HP per level So no, he's not a match for him, at least not on those low levels where you meet them both.

Sure, why not? If it makes it interesting and a challenge. The "game" in one's mind is everything and people choose it to play it as they wish. I'm simply indicating to you that powergaming isn't the only way to play. What you call gimping, I call a challenge or taking a role-playing choice. The characters interactions and banter are central to making combat different and interesting and so why the need to maximise everything everytime? One misses out on part of the fun I reckon.

I'd never argue that any random person couldn't have fun with a random game. That's not the point of this thread. To me, the lack of balance means that playing an evil party isn't as fun, and isn't tempting for subsequent playthroughs.

As an aside: An hilarious example of someone creating their own unique challenge in Icewind Dale for example: A chap named Midget Gems on my ol' forum haunt (Ironworks) made this wonderful let's play with a gnome themed party. The additional and insane catch was, that he tried to avoid levelling up at all through the game and simply use the game mechanics, spells, abilities and his sheer wit etc (and naturally some reloading) in order to survive. He got amazingly far and the story was quite amusing to read…I should fish out a link to it at some point.

Yeah, but if you pull out all the stops, we might as well say that BG2 has FAR more party composition options - if you start a multiplayer game. Thanks to kits and one additional race, it beats BG hands down.

Kagain not only has a lower STR so he'll miss even more often than usual in low level AD&D combat, but he also has a low DEX so even in a defensive role he's worse than Minsc. Those two HP per level So no, he's not a match for him, at least not on those low levels where you meet them both.

There are other ways to compensate for stats obviously, (items, buffs, choice of tactics) so your point is too purely mechanical for my taste.
In my experience, Kagain has made a fantastic tank and to be honest, I've always preferred him and had Minsc on arrow duty when the two have been in the party together. So yeah, sorry - Kagain is a match for Minsc in my book. Perhaps we'll just have to disagree on the definitions and terms.

Yeah, but if you pull out all the stops, we might as well say that BG2 has FAR more party composition options - if you start a multiplayer game. Thanks to kits and one additional race, it beats BG hands down.

Sure, but not really relevant to my Midget Gems story. I also think that it's a purely academic point when you consider what BGTuTu and other mods have done for importing kits and classes to the original game. Again, it's about variety of composition and npc interaction!

Originally Posted by Pessimeister
Sure, but not really relevant to my Midget Gems story. I also think that it's a purely academic point when you consider what BGTuTu and other mods have done for importing kits and classes to the original game. Again, it's about variety of composition and npc interaction!

I made it a point not to talk about modded BG though; I've too little experience with that. I've heard that there are mods that actually enforce and reward real tactical combat Maybe I'll even try some of those in the future. They don't seem to be part of BG:EE though.

I brought it up because yeah, when you've done all you can do in a normal game, it can be fun to attempt some oddball approach. Like an all gnome party. The question is though, does the game really play any different?

Originally Posted by Sacred_Path
The question is though, does the game really play any different?

I don't find that question especially interesting; as obviously its the same game that you're playing and by and large it'll basically play the same way.
However, for me the more interesting questions are how your configuration choices affect your approaches to certain situations; as often you'll have to adapt and find new ways of dealing with challenges if one is used to just fireballing/missile hitting and hacking with the single tank in front each time. A great example is how Midget Gems manages to pass Dragon's Eye level 3 using the Sanctuary spell and whole lot of luring tactics.

It's a little off-topic, but just in case anyone is interested - here is Midget Gem's Suicidal Gnomes story. Who knows, perhaps it could inspire someone to make a unique theme oriented BG:EE playthrough? An all cleric or mage party might be fun.

http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/…ad.php?t=23971

Originally Posted by Maylander
This thread has already been completely ruined, but I just wanted to answer the actual question.

Start over with EE. Honestly. Trying to continue a save game that's several years old is hopeless, and EE is a smoother experience overall which requires no modding or other weird tweaking.

As BG1:EE uses BG2 rules, it might be a bit confusing in the start. If you need any advice, just ask.

It has slightly derailed, yes, but it's nevertheless interesting to read the varying opinions on this "classic" game.

Thanks for the feedback. Starting the EE seems indeed what most -- if not all, as even Sacred_Path advocates there are no critical differences between the original and the EE -- folks seem to advise, so that is probably what I am going to go with.

Originally Posted by Pessimeister
Also JDR - your pussy point is a bit…daft. I expect better from you mate.

Next time I'll make sure I write "sarcasm" in parentheses next to it.

This is highly likely to be a no-brainer question, but here goes: if I purchased BGEE through beamdog, then I purchase BG2EE via steam, can I readily transfer my character between the two? I suspect it may be a non-transparent process and I will have to drag some files over to a different directory tree.

Sorry if this has been asked already.

I suspect that might be the case yes, unless they make some sort of intelligent import system that checks both folders.

The import should work at least, as BG:EE uses similar saves as BG1. At least I recall importing my BG:EE savegames to regular BG2 without too much hassle.

Pushing my way through BG:EE again so that I'll have my preferred character ready for BG2:EE. Thank goodness for having a variety of companions to choose from so that the experience doesn't grow too stale. What's striking to me is that after all these years I'm still finding multiple bugs in the game. Not show stopper bugs mind you, but bugs just the same. Ah well.