Gamasutra - Joy more adult than violence?

In an editorial entitled Can joy be more adult than violence?, Leigh Alexander ponders about this question. Citing Michael Abbot, game critic about shooters and E3:

"What concerns me about the avalanche of shooters we see at E3 every year is the way they're showcased as the very best the industry can do," Abbott tells Gamasutra. "We're told these are important groundbreaking games, but we can see for ourselves they aren't. This year the endless stream of violence felt more like pandering than ever, and I felt bored and alienated. And old. Every E3 is pitched to the same 14-year-old adolescent male as the one before. And every year I have less in common with that boy."

Leigh Alexander then asks Honeyslug's Ricky Haggett and here's what he has to say:

"Allowing the player to 'perform' within the game, with interactions rich enough to support a degree of creativity - perhaps even allow players to do some exuberant showboating," Haggett recommends. "Game actions which aren't required to succeed, but provided purely as a way to enhance the performance can help a lot here, as does the ability to chain together different game actions in interesting ways: the more variation the game allows in how the player interacts with it, the better."

In conclusion, Abbott says this:

"Ironically, as that 14-year-old seems to want ever more 'adult' and grisly games, I find myself yearning for more 'adult' games that enable joyful imaginative play. Violence in games feels played-out. I'm hungry for experiences that tap into other human impulses.

More information.

Interesting take. I'm 66-years-old and I feel the same about violence/combat. While it has a place in a game, for me it's not the overriding attraction. That's why I think the upcoming 'Styx' game looks very appealing. It seems more about using your head to find a way through the game without all the whizz-bang hack 'n slash.
I don't need or necessarily want all the frenetic running and gunning in any type of game. FPS's per se never much appealed to me.
Sure, I like to bang swords and shields on occasion and I like FO3 and FO:NV for some of the action. But even with that, I'm more of a stealth player, never the 'tank' guy. In the Gothic series, I always played a rogue/ranger type using bows or crossbows. In the Fallouts, I used sniper weapons and the environment to my advantage.
Finesse instead of a sledge-hammer is my chosen method. Any suggestions for current games that fit the bill?

Dishonored and DeusX: HR immediately spring to mind.

There's always the new Thief game, though I haven't played it so I can't personally speak to it.

I'll second Zahra's suggestion for Dishonored. It actually gives you rewards and incentives for nonlethal gameplay (and penalizes you the more violent you are). It's an excellent stealth game.

On the original topic, I think the industry will change. I think it's inevitable that things will turn around. Mindless violence and carnage are getting boring to so many people.

This year the endless stream of violence felt more like pandering than ever, and I felt bored and alienated. And old. Every E3 is pitched to the same 14-year-old adolescent male as the one before. And every year I have less in common with that boy.

Increased psychopathization of the masses is going on since the Robocop movie. Where the protagonist is shot into pieces with a shotgun: body parts shown up close The Braindead movie was also a psychological shock inducer with interns standing at exits asking basic psych-test questions disguised as collecting viewers opinions.

Then came demonic Clive Barker with his game ideas inspired by the devil. Those IPs realized turned out to be stuffed with live-flayed red bodies soaked in an ocean of blood and obscenity everywhere ..Jericho.

There was Manhunt - head-stabbing with big piece of glass shard then beheading with shovel, Dishonored with its neck-stabbing with big knife shown up close lots of blood.

Inhuman sick demented toxic imagery. Then parents & people wonder in their unbelievable ignorance if a child goes Vaco.

We're a violent, aggressive species. Boys played games of violence long before video games came along. For me, the adult perspective is examining the point behind the violence—looking beyond the individual needs to see the causes and consequences. Seeking joy is equally problematic—it can be a narcissistic, selfish goal that consumes you, or you can find contentedness in bringing joy to others. What's adult is seeing the game elements from a wider perspective.

Mindless gameplay is a turn-off for which I guess maturity is to blame, violence is not. At least I can't say that violence ever diminished my enjoyment of a game if its other parts were deemed well designed. What I do have to say though, while violence isn't a turn-off for me, the 'tone' of its delivery might be. Or IOW, whenever someone markets anything about a game as being 'mature', it sure as hell isn't.

Basically there need to be more porn games.

The first part relies on a fallacy: the core customer base is not the 14 year old kids.
Games are designed to appeal to the core base, that is much older than 20 (even over 30)
The 14 year old kid is lured in by the perspective of what it means to be a 30 year old player and what games they like.

The segment on action is interesting: over the years, this term got to cover less and less. When the industry started, many things were considered action, then less and less.
Re introducing some that were perceived as action usually disatisfy the player.

Players are power trippers, violence is one of the way to get power and video game developpers have reduced that violence act to the part they can properly deliver.

There is a difference between artistic depiction of violence - Fallout 1-2, Baldur's Gate, Darklands, Project Eternity hopefully - designed to release stress [violent tendencies & energies] and inhuman, demented representation of violence designed to shock the masses and inject them with psychopathy[Wetiko virus].

Originally Posted by mercy
Increased psychopathization of the masses is going on since the Robocop movie.

I dislike violent games or violent movies but there haven't yet been a proven connection between violence in games/books/films and violence in RL. IMO something quite opposite happens. Like junkie looking for a dealer (or a pedophile looking for child porn) it's the psychopaths which are actively looking for their fix of violence in games/books/films.
In short, games don't make you violent. Violent people do like violent games.

"Ironically, as that 14-year-old seems to want ever more 'adult' and grisly games, I find myself yearning for more 'adult' games that enable joyful imaginative play. Violence in games feels played-out. I'm hungry for experiences that tap into other human impulses.

Ha ! Finally someone of my mind !

Originally Posted by zahratustra
I dislike violent games or violent movies but there haven't yet been a proven connection between violence in games/books/films and violence in RL.

There are a few hints - like already aggressive players getting more aggressinve - and players getting de-sensitivied (my word) after long play …

But that's not even the point here ! The point is, that violence is considered "adult" and that lighthearted colourfulness is coinsidered "childish" !

Absolutely NO-ONE would believe my age if I would state in ANY random gaming community that I DO like colurful, lighthearted games as an "adult" !!! THAT is the point !

It's almost like … how do I call it ? It isn't racism, but it indeed is a bias. It is as if I was saying that women don't play military games. That's a prejudice as well.

And this prejudice consists of assuming that adults of 30+ age would not enjoy colourful, lighthearted games !

In fact, that's an prejudice the younger generations (tteenagers, for example) impose on the adults … They shake their heads, roll their eyes, utter to each other "how uncool !" and "he must have something with his brain" when I tell them that I do like games like … let's say Super Mario !

And on an completely different topic : There are tales and stories not even the best shooter and/or war game in general is able to tell … Simply because they are not the fitting "naqrrative environment" for this.

Just imagine Peter Gabriel's song "Don't Give Up" as an video game - would you be able to imagine it as an "Company Of Heroes", "Call Of Duty", "Soldiers Of Fortune", "Spec Ops" game ?

I can't, and that's one of the points why gaming has become so much degraded nowadays.

I wondered what a "joyful" game was, and the Katamari series is the most prominent example in the article of the game of joy. Personally, this has got to be the dumbest game I have ever played. I mean you just roll around and become the fattest ball of ugly, jutting junk. But I have met people who find this joyful, and I don't question that is a mature assessment based on accumulated experience and developed desires.

I don't know where the maturity/immaturity debate came from, because adult life is what adult life is for you. If bright colors, wacky designs, and pointless activities capture the essence of adulthood for you, that is strange to me, but totally cool. But there are people who find the essence of life harsher than you, and eviscerating virtual people brings them joy. They are adults and their desires that are catered to in virtually every RPG and most mainstream games are mature desires, they come from a wealth of life experience that is of the highest quality, not some stunted nature in the superiority delusions of people who write pieces like this. So back off the immaturity angle, because it is a load of crap.

You don't need to tell me about "people who find the essence of life harsher than you,", I know what I'm talking aboput. MOst long-time members of the Watch know my background.

But you are again an example of this prejudice : You write that "If bright colors, wacky designs, and pointless activities capture the essence of adulthood for you,", and your words imply that "pointless activities" are what I want.

Newsflash ! : They aren't.

I've been going through darker times than most of the people here, and I needed at least SOME light to go on - and to live, in the end.
To me, this means that I needed light in the darkness, or I wouldn't be here, at this desk, writing these words. And self-suicide is a theme I haven't seen in ANY game so far - not even in "adult" games.

I do know what I'm talking about - but you fall prey to that obove mentioned prejudice by assuming that all I am is a person with no depth - because I wrote that I like colourfulness and lighthearted themes.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
The point is, that violence is considered "adult" and that lighthearted colourfulness is coinsidered "childish" !

It has also some laughable consequences. Some players dont like colors so much that they accepts mostly only graphical style based on dark tones and pale colors. Im pretty sure that few people will claim that Divinity Original Sin is "childish" game because of "awfull colourfulness".

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
There are a few hints - like already aggressive players getting more aggressinve - and players getting de-sensitivied (my word) after long play …

I mostly agree with your comment but Im more concerned with different fact. If mainstream gaming community hails strong graphical violence so much it basically means that teenagers are "stuck" in primitive grinders and banal linear shooters that delivers this kind of experience to them. It becomes the biggest merit for some of them. So they are hardly (or never) attracted to games with much more merits like more living and open worlds, choices, more interactivity, different gameplay styles (tactical, thief-like, RTS…), more interesting stories etc.

Violence became PR machine for the dumbest and most limiting gaming content.

For a non violent game I liked Lula a lot
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lula_(series)

Lots of non violent games (adventures, empire building, simulators, etc) but indeed the gross of the youth plays cod.

IMO children should be protected from these things. They are extremely pliable ( friends, marketing). Parents don't do enough parenting, sorry.

Alric, I wasn't even talking about you. You didn't write the article that mentioned Katamari over and over again as an exemplar of joy. I particularly find that game pointless and not joyful in the least. That was what I was talking about. You also never made the case that violent expression was immature, like the author did. I found that point implied in both this article and the one about Miyamoto objectionable.

You make an opposite case, and I never disagreed. If you like Nintendo games, I never argued that makes you childish. I did argue that if you like them enough to own a Wii U, it makes you rare enough for Miyamoto's arguments in the other article about Nintendo dominance crazy. Rare, but not wrong in anything you have said.

Heck, if you like Katamari, and Katamari was so great it brought meaning and insight in to your life, that is beyond my own theory of mind, but I don't question that you have your reasons and they are valid.

Originally Posted by ilm
For a non violent game I liked Lula a lot
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lula_(series)

You mean Lula adventure? The ancient one with odd items manipulation system?
It rocked absolutely!
Now that game should get a HD remake. I'm instabuying if it happens.

Originally Posted by ilm
IMO children should be protected from these things. They are extremely pliable ( friends, marketing). Parents don't do enough parenting, sorry.

Parents should know what games their children play. I wish the only acceptable genres for kids were RPG and adventures (puzzles to challenge IQ), sadly parents usually don't care and let kids to play all games that are "action". Usually those are full of brutality and gore.