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Default Divinity: Original Sin - Review Roundup #2

July 14th, 2014, 02:13
There are a couple things very wrong with this game.

First: It took me a few days of playing it to remember how to play a well made RPG game. By this I mean having to think again and figure out things by of all things READing books and TALKing to people. Should add remember for myself what read or said.

Second: The biggest problem with this game is I don't want to do anything else but play it. Not just rush through it, I want to take my time and explore everything. Read everything, talk to everyone, open every box, chest etc.

It brings be back to a time in the safety of my parents house playing Ultima's on my C-64.
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July 14th, 2014, 02:57
Originally Posted by CelticFrost View Post
First: It took me a few days of playing it to remember how to play a well made RPG game. By this I mean having to think again and figure out things by of all things READing books and TALKing to people. Should add remember for myself what read or said.
There is sheer horror in that comment. I won't be able to sleep for weeks. Figure things out for myself? Gives me the shakes just thinking about it.
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July 14th, 2014, 03:05
For its faults, that Gaming Trend review does bring up a few good points; namely, I wish the manual was more fleshed out with the finer points of the game - whether it be spell combos or simply the attribute point progression… While Divinity:OS may hearken back to BG, it doesn't share any similarities with the latter's manual.
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July 14th, 2014, 04:03
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
For its faults, that Gaming Trend review does bring up a few good points; namely, I wish the manual was more fleshed out with the finer points of the game - whether it be spell combos or simply the attribute point progression… While Divinity:OS may hearken back to BG, it doesn't share any similarities with the latter's manual.
I agree, I'm ok with having some things to discover for yourself, but when creating my characters I want to make informed decisions but not at the character creation screen nor in the manual does it explain, well, anything really. It's not a huge deal nowadays because I can probably pull all that info from the internet in seconds, but I'd rather the basic info to create characters was in-game or at least in the manual.
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July 14th, 2014, 09:48
GT reviews sounds fair enough, if a bit ignorant.

We have to understand that we're not the majority - and a lot of people will struggle with an old-school approach, and that should definitely be part of any review.

In fact, I'm more inclined to be sceptical if a review does NOT mention these things as potential negatives.

Personally, I have a feeling the game is good enough for me to invest myself quite a bit - but it really does take a great game for that to happen, and I'm as old-school as they come. I've just come to appreciate that old-school isn't the only way or necessarily the best way.

However, what the review does seem to miss is that this kind of game is specifically made to be replayed and enjoyed for a very long time. It is INDEED made for people who've already played it - to an extent - and that's a good thing.

That's why the first time through being a bit of a struggle is actually part of the design, I'd argue. It's a great thing if you enjoy the discovery and it will actually serve as a major incentive to go through it again, since knowing what you didn't before will make the experience somewhat fresh and exciting.

This is not how most games are made today, and pretty much every single AAA title is made so that small children can understand them and overcome whatever challenge. So, with this in mind - it should come as no surprise that reviewers have some difficulty appreciating the good parts of a seemingly unfair design.

Of course, I don't actually know if it's the intended design - I just have a strong feeling that it is.

Then again, I started playing games at 6 - and I didn't understand the first thing about even the simplest games. To me, discovering how a game worked quickly became an absolutely integral part of the experience. It has taken years and years of endless streamlining and watering down for me to adjust to the transparency that's now the norm.

One would think I'd be ecstatic to have a shot at the old-school way once more, but the thing of it is that the quality of the content has actually increased in a big way - overall - throughout the years.

This is the part a lot of old-school gamers refuse to admit, and they insist that the games of the early 80s to mid-90s had much better content.

That's largely bullshit, if you ask me. Oh, there are exceptions - but the best games of modern times have superior content (story delivery, assets, technical sophistication, and so on) - and as such, it takes something special for me to bother investing again.

I have no idea why so many old-schoolers are jumping up and down to invest themselves no matter what the content, but I guess that's just down to personal preferences.

Thankfully, DOS seems to be a game that has both a delightful old-school approach and quality content in spades. I'll just have to play it myself to be sure

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July 14th, 2014, 21:08
To the reviews that complain about having to figure out the game I present you this:



Yes that's right. Back in the good old days, we had something called a manual. Now, you too, right on the main Steam page for Divinity: Original Sin can print out a manual of your very own!
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July 14th, 2014, 21:09
The D:OS manual is pretty bad. It's nothing like the manuals from the old days. (Unfortunately)
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July 14th, 2014, 21:14
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
The D:OS manual is pretty bad. It's nothing like the manuals from the old days. (Unfortunately)
Yep, the manuals used to be one of the exciting parts. Something to do while you insert disk #7
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July 14th, 2014, 21:18
Yea - they didn't list every single possible spell in the manual. And smithing combinations. And why some locks are not pickable. And why are some "obstacles" unkillable. Etc.
Bastards!

The manual is good enough for a modern game. You have pretty much everything explained ingame. Those who complain on figuring out the game, I can only suspect their IQ is lower than ameba's.
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July 14th, 2014, 21:19
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Yea - they didn't list every single possible spell in the manual. And smithing combinations. And why some locks are not pickable. And why are some "obstacles" unkillable. Etc.
Bastards!

The manual is good enough for a modern game. You have pretty much everything explained ingame. Those who complain on figuring out the game, I can only suspect their IQ is lower than ameba's.
I approve of this post
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July 14th, 2014, 21:28
It'd be nice to know all the skills in advance so you can plan out your party better.
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July 15th, 2014, 02:37
Originally Posted by CelticFrost View Post
Second: The biggest problem with this game is I don't want to do anything else but play it. Not just rush through it, I want to take my time and explore everything. Read everything, talk to everyone, open every box, chest etc.

It brings be back to a time in the safety of my parents house playing Ultima's on my C-64.
Exactly the feeling I have. I'm enjoying just leisurely strolling the game and putzing around with crafting and sneaking. Last night I spent my whole playing time on a challenging battle. I won the first time, saved, and then reloaded just to try a different approach since I had so much fun the first time.

The combat system in DoS is truly the best RPG one I can recall, with it's great use of action points, cooldowns and interlocking of magic & environmental effects.
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July 15th, 2014, 02:39
Best since Temple of Elemental Evil, without a doubt. That's 11 years ago. I'm sure some/many would argue it's even better than ToEE, and that you'd have to go back even farther, but saying it's the best in over a decade is pretty much a lock.
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July 15th, 2014, 05:13
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Yea - they didn't list every single possible spell in the manual. And smithing combinations. And why some locks are not pickable. And why are some "obstacles" unkillable. Etc.
I agree I really enjoyed discovering how games worked while I played them. The Ultima games did really well in this area. The manuals did not disclose everything you might discover in-game. But still there was a lot to read in the form of spell compendiums, lore compendiums, and yes, even a game manual.

What I believe to be my first memory of a game quite literally spelling out everything I'd encounter in the manual was the first Zelda game for the NES. Though I enjoyed that game thoroughly from it's gold colored box and cart to a nice thick manual (for a console game) I do remember feeling as if I had read all the spoilers for the game. That wasn't exactly true (lots still to discover) but I felt that too much was disclosed in the Zelda manual.
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July 17th, 2014, 20:58
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
One would think I'd be ecstatic to have a shot at the old-school way once more, but the thing of it is that the quality of the content has actually increased in a big way - overall - throughout the years.
It has? Hmm. I wouldn't agree there. I'm not saying all old-school games are better than modern games, but the quality of content largely has stayed the same over many years, IMO.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
This is the part a lot of old-school gamers refuse to admit, and they insist that the games of the early 80s to mid-90s had much better content.

That's largely bullshit, if you ask me. Oh, there are exceptions - but the best games of modern times have superior content (story delivery, assets, technical sophistication, and so on) - and as such, it takes something special for me to bother investing again.

I have no idea why so many old-schoolers are jumping up and down to invest themselves no matter what the content, but I guess that's just down to personal preferences.
I don't insist that older games had better content, some of them do and some of them don't, but I don't agree that modern games have superior content.

The things you gave as examples (story delivery, assets, tech sophistication) have changed over the years, but I wouldn't call them superior to the old stuff. I'd call them different.

The tech has no doubt gotten better (that much is obvious), but it sounds like you're saying old games are inferior due to less enhanced tech. When those old games first came out, many of them were the highest tech of their respective days. I don't think just because it's older now that makes it somehow inferior.

To be honest, I find much of the older stuff superior, but I'm that way in a lot of things. Music, for example. I much prefer late 60s early 70s music. It has a quality that I really enjoy and prefer over more modern stuff.

In games, I guess I'm sort of similar. I really dig the old-school approach to RPGs and I feel that approach is lacking in modern games. So in some ways, I would consider some older RPGs superior to newer ones.

I guess it all comes down to taste. One man's "old and inferior" is another man's "better and superior" .

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July 17th, 2014, 21:28
Something is wrong with me. Everyone is going crazy with the game and i can't. I love the battles but the story is keeping me away. Too many magic items. I'll keep trying though.
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July 17th, 2014, 22:07
Magic items? Bah.
Ignore/sell blue (magic) items. Keep green (rare) and yellow (legendary) items.

What's exactly wrong with the story? You're investigating a murder? What, you're not a detective type of person?
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July 18th, 2014, 00:21
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Magic items? Bah.
Ignore/sell blue (magic) items. Keep green (rare) and yellow (legendary) items.

What's exactly wrong with the story? You're investigating a murder? What, you're not a detective type of person?
That must be for high level or something. I'm at level 4 right now and I definitely have use for 'blue' items. I think I only have one yellow and a couple of greens.
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July 18th, 2014, 00:35
He says he has too many of those so…
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July 18th, 2014, 10:02
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
It has? Hmm. I wouldn't agree there. I'm not saying all old-school games are better than modern games, but the quality of content largely has stayed the same over many years, IMO.
Depends on what you mean by content, I suppose. If you're talking about plot lines - then perhaps you're right, even if the delivery has been improved ten-fold.

If you're talking about presentation, story telling, the sheer amount of stuff to find, the visual variety, the richness of the atmosphere, the sophistication of AI and so on - most modern RPGs are WAY ahead of the old-school games like Wizardry, Might and Magic, Pool of Radiance, Questron, Dungeon Master, and so on.

The things you gave as examples (story delivery, assets, tech sophistication) have changed over the years, but I wouldn't call them superior to the old stuff. I'd call them different.
That's fair enough. I consider them far superior for obvious reasons.

The tech has no doubt gotten better (that much is obvious), but it sounds like you're saying old games are inferior due to less enhanced tech. When those old games first came out, many of them were the highest tech of their respective days.
It's not just about tech, though that's obviously a big factor. It's about the amount of resources dedicated to producing content. As in, we have professionals dedicated to their particular role on the team doing the work - where only a small handful of people used to have to write the story, do the dialogue, write the code and so on.

To me, it's complete denial to state that old content can measure up to a good modern RPG - unless as an exception.

To be honest, I find much of the older stuff superior, but I'm that way in a lot of things. Music, for example. I much prefer late 60s early 70s music. It has a quality that I really enjoy and prefer over more modern stuff.
Music is timeless in many ways - and it's usually not about resources at all.

It's not at all what I'm talking about, and I like all kinds of music.

In games, I guess I'm sort of similar. I really dig the old-school approach to RPGs and I feel that approach is lacking in modern games. So in some ways, I would consider some older RPGs superior to newer ones.
I'm talking about content, not the overall quality of the experience. I tend to prefer old-school mechanics and certain aspects of the designs, like no hand-holding and a decent challenge.

But the content? Please keep that old crap away from me. I tend to follow the times when it comes to technology and evolution.

I guess it all comes down to taste. One man's "old and inferior" is another man's "better and superior" .
Obviously so, though it could have something to do with being capable of seeing both good and bad about everything that happens during the evolution of an industry.

My claim is that a lot of old-school fans overlook the good things about what has happened, or they dismiss it as insignificant.

You sound like you could be like that too, though you do seem to appreciate games like Bloodlines - which could never have happened before production values allowed for high-quality voice acting and technology like the Source engine provided realistic facial expressions and so on.

Maybe you think that game would have been just as good using old technology without voice overs? Fair enough. I don't agree at all.

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