|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Saving in roleplaying games continued discussion from other thread

Default Saving in roleplaying games continued discussion from other thread

January 6th, 2015, 20:02
You're not picky because you got used to consolegames and horrible design choices in them.

We gave a shot on Gothic games plenty of years ago… Why do you think there is not a single person here who'll say anything bad about Gothic 2? At least I didn't see one.

It's like telling us that SSD is better than HDD years after we bought one… Of course it is better! PC gaming is all about options. We don't want restrictions or limits, we want options. Options are fun. It's not our fault you can't have options on consoles.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#21

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 23,468
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 20:14
Originally Posted by Turjan View Post
I prefer a combination of 1 and 2: allow you to save anywhere + the game autosaves before you do something that has a high probability of you failing.

I'm not sure which game did this to me last, but there was one that didn't let you skip cutscenes and had an about 10 minute long one prior to some major combat that I failed several times in a row. Really, I couldn't see that stupid cutscene anymore…
I believe that was the first Witcher, if I am not mistaken. One of the low points of that game…
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!

#22

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 15,603
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 20:25
PC gaming is all about options, yet you scoff at DLC, joxer. You are a walking contradiction.

Not that I really care one way or the other.

Gothic is great when you play it "the right way". No save-scumming.

It would be cool to see an RPG designed like Gothic but with Ironman mode and a unique save system. I think save systems are going to evolve and become a larger part of the design vision.

I have nothing much to say to you about consoles. I think consoles are great. At least vintage ones are. New ones have lost me since I'm a PC gamer mostly now, but I can still appreciate a console game.

It's called being able to enjoy multiple things, not gridlocking yourself into one choice.

Deleted User

Guest

#23

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 20:52
Don't worry Fluent, Gothic is fun when you save-scum too

I love trying out things, especially to see if I can beat someone using different tricks. This involves reloading the game 20 times or so.
Pladio is online now

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin Donor

#24

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 7,893
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 20:55
Yep, reloading for trying different tactics is great fun.

Having to grind through trash mobs from the last checkpoint before you can try a different tactic is not fun. Which is why I keep putting off the Souls games….
Last edited by Thrasher; January 6th, 2015 at 22:17.
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!

#25

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 15,603
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 21:35
I'm not into save-scumming anymore. It feels cheap to me, especially with a game like Gothic that relies so heavily on choice and consequence.

If I don't accept the consequences of my choice, then what's the point?

Re-loading is fine if that's what you want to do, but it's not for me.

Think of how involving a game like Gothic can get when you tell yourself you're not going to re-load all the time. All of a sudden every move you make is important and thought about carefully. That's why I love this new approach I'm taking.

To each their own, of course. There's nothing wrong with re-loading if that's what you want to do. But I'm really enjoying this new found method of playing RPGs.

Deleted User

Guest

#26

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 22:18
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
PC gaming is all about options, yet you scoff at DLC, joxer. You are a walking contradiction.
Contradiction, yea, right.
DLC is not an option. It's usually a content cut out from the game and sold separately. You can't buy a game and choose if you'll play DLC or not. You have to pay for it in order to be able to choose something there.
Unlike DLC, you don't have to pay separately for an ability to choose if you'll save the game somewhere or not. On PC. Not on console.
--
Toka Koka
joxer is offline

joxer

joxer's Avatar
The Smoker
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#27

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 23,468
Mentioned: 230 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 22:20
It's different to reload because of a choice vs. reloading to try different tactics in combat. But I can see why someone would also want to try both paths in a conversation, or something other than combat tactic choices to see the possible consequences. For me, the joy in a lot of these games is seeing the reactivity to your choices, and learning how the game works. If all you ever do is play one path, then you don't see the variance. I rarely replay games, so saving, and reloading is a way for me to see the variance. It's not really to power game, but I may take advantage of it as a side benefit.

I probably have a rare viewpoint, in that I like to dissect software and understand gaming systems, and see how they work. Probably too clinical for most, and certainly unnatural.
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!

#28

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 15,603
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 23:07
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
It's different to reload because of a choice vs. reloading to try different tactics in combat. But I can see why someone would also want to try both paths in a conversation, or something other than combat tactic choices to see the possible consequences. For me, the joy in a lot of these games is seeing the reactivity to your choices, and learning how the game works. If all you ever do is play one path, then you don't see the variance. I rarely replay games, so saving, and reloading is a way for me to see the variance. It's not really to power game, but I may take advantage of it as a side benefit.

I probably have a rare viewpoint, in that I like to dissect software and understand gaming systems, and see how they work. Probably too clinical for most, and certainly unnatural.
Nah, I'm like you. Gothic 1 and 2 are some of the rare games I have replayed at least partly.

I usually only finish a game once… So reloading to quickly see some different options is something I do often.
Pladio is online now

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin Donor

#29

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 7,893
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 23:39
We can be partners in save scumming crime, then.
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!

#30

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 15,603
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 23:54
Thrasher, Pladio. I do the same as well, especially if the game wasn't interesting enough for a replay. I just simply don't have time to replay games anymore, normally play it once or twice at the most lately. It just seem so inconvenient to go back and play the whole game again just for a few different conversion/decision making choices. A quick reload can easily satisfy my curiosity and save time! (and the agony if the game is terrible).

purpleblob

Guest

#31

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

January 6th, 2015, 23:59
OK, great! It's a trio then.
Thrasher is offline

Thrasher

Thrasher's Avatar
Wheeee!

#32

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Studio City, CA
Posts: 15,603
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 01:18
I am not sure why people who don't like reloading because it removes consequences … well simply don't reload Why take away an option that doesn't affect you if you just exert some will power? Also why should it matter if someone else does reload? Why should the way someone else plays the game get someone's undies in a twist?

Personally I won't play any game if I can't save when I want (except during combat or cinematics … doesn't make much sense, to me, to save in the middle of those things).

I got a life that isn't as accommodating about being glued to my computer. I often need to just disengage at sudden notice and having to redo some content over again because of some lame-ass limited save option is not something I enjoy.

Also some games are very WTF with dialogue (especially recent ME and DA games). I have no problem living with consequences but if I pick one of those mini-dialogue wheel options thinking it meant X and turns out to be the complete opposite (which happens to often in Bioware games IMO) I am going to reload. Its one thing to make a choice based on what you want your character to do … another to have the developers totally have a different take on that choice. In "real life" you are not limited to such a thing.

Saving features of a game are one of the make it or break it design decisions for me unless it is a simple and mindless hack and slash like Diablo.
--
Character is centrality, the impossibility of being displaced or overset. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
wolfgrimdark is offline

wolfgrimdark

wolfgrimdark's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#33

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 3,391
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 01:32
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
I am not sure why people who don't like reloading because it removes consequences … well simply don't reload Why take away an option that doesn't affect you if you just exert some will power? Also why should it matter if someone else does reload? Why should the way someone else plays the game get someone's undies in a twist?
Has anyone suggested removing the saving/re-loading option because they don't personally care for it? Has anyone been upset the way others play the game?

What or who are you even talking about?

As for the rest of your post, if the character responds in a way you weren't expecting, then a re-load is your choice. It always will be. I haven't really had that happen to me much in my RPG gaming experience, but hey, maybe it's a Bioware thing (I don't play many of their newer games.)

I'm currently playing Gothic 2 in an Ironman mode and just suggesting that newer games try this sort of thing. Of course, it probably wouldn't be popular with the mainstream, but it could add some character and challenge to a niche game.

My main point was that trying to play an RPG without save-scumming can be a very rewarding experience. In the past I was like a save/load addict who had to play the "perfect" way, and that is tiring and boring to me now.

So now, I choose to accept the consequences of all actions, for good or bad. I find that it adds a unique element to the game when I do that. It's especially fun in a game with heavy choice and consequences, such as the Gothic series.

I highly doubt many games are going to start enforcing Ironman modes, so you all have nothing at all to worry about

Deleted User

Guest

#34

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 11:27
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
Um, great. You rip something I said when agreeing with you in one thread and change the context and suddenly accuse me of 'not getting the point'?

WTF?

The answer is no … no I do not give you permission to take my words out of context and screw around to make some other point.

I would actually say that in this regard YOU do not get the point. Of pretty much ANY of this.
Ooops, sorry about that, it was supposed to be a reply to JDR, anyway copy and pasting between threads is a bit of chore, and I guess I did a poor job of it.
GothicGothicness is offline

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#35

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,233
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 11:31
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
I'm personally not in favour of games not allowing you to save anywhere (there might be some requirements like character not being in combat and with both feet on solid ground, to avoid issues, but apart from that, you should be able to save anywhere). Even in the case of Dark Souls, I think a "save anywhere" system would actually be good for the game, though as Dark Souls is built around a very specific experience, it would be what some games would refer to as an "ironman mode", where you are only allowed to keep one save slot, and when you save it overwrites it. Also, it should overwrite the save slot whenever you do something drastic, like die (and here it should spawn you back at the campfire). Not being allowed to quit the game whenever I want/need to is actually a big reason for why I've yet to beat Dark Souls, as it is very hard to plan around a game where savepoints are few & far between.
But you can quit anytime you want in dark souls and it'll save your progress exactly where you are ? not sure what you mean…..
GothicGothicness is offline

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#36

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,233
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 11:55
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Ooops, sorry about that, it was supposed to be a reply to JDR, anyway copy and pasting between threads is a bit of chore, and I guess I did a poor job of it.
Understood And yeah, I was totally talking about FPS save systems in the context of things like Dark Forces where there were no saves in-level compared to games with checkpoints, limited saves per level, unlimited saves and so on. For FPS I found Soldier of Fortune II had an interesting approach by making it an option you had total control over - how many saves per level. Use them all and you're done.

For an RPG I like save anywhere with autosaves when you enter an area.

I DO tend to replay my faves (like Gothic) so I tend to just deal with my mistakes unless they get me into a unplayable position.
--
-- Mike
txa1265 is offline

txa1265

SasqWatch

#37

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 14,863
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 12:13
Personally, I feel that not having a flexible save system means I have to invest myself more to succeed and avoid frustration. That's only a problem if I feel the game isn't worth investing in.

So, it really depends on whether the game in itself is "good enough" - and if the save system makes sense given the context of the experience.

As such, I don't mind a harsh save system if the game is great and the experience motivates my full investment.

As an example, I'll mention Demon's Souls on PS3. For the first ~25 hours or so, I actually think the save system worked FOR the experience - because the design was so intricately developed around the concept of teaching you the patterns of enemies and other challenges. So, I quickly accepted that I would lose progress if I didn't pay attention.

But, at some point, I kinda "got it" in terms of what the experience had to offer and what it didn't have to offer - and I ceased being as invested in the experience because I stopped being fascinated and enthralled with it, and the save system started working AGAINST the game. But that's a fully subjective point of view.

Essentially, I don't think I have a clear-cut answer, and it's definitely much harder for a game to make me accept an inflexible system today than it was when I had all the time in the world to play. A game would have to be tremendously engaging and fresh to make me want to invest and accept a significant loss of progress.

Now, I know this is about RPGs - but a recent game "almost" made me accept such a premise, and that was Alien Isolation. It started on such a strong note - and I was ok with a loss of progress, because it was a perfect match for the tension and horror. But once it started outstaying its welcome and it had no new tricks up its sleeve, I became less invested and interested. That was when I set the game to Easy - and just wanted it over with.

So, conclusively, for me it's about the game and my affection for it - I think.

DArtagnan

Guest

#38

Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 13:08
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
But you can quit anytime you want in dark souls and it'll save your progress exactly where you are ? not sure what you mean…..
I don't know if I was just having issues with my save then (because I was having issues with a lot of things when trying to play Dark Souls, like the game crashing if I had my gamepad plugged in when i started it, so I had to start the game without it plugged in and then plug it in, or the plethora of GFWL issues I've had to endure), but Dark Souls always started me back at the fireplace.
Fnord is offline

Fnord

Fnord's Avatar
SasqWatch

#39

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,756
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)

Default 

January 7th, 2015, 13:14
Strange… maybe you should try again now as GFWL is gone and I think if you install DS mouse/keyboard fix game will crash with gamepad that might have been the issue.
GothicGothicness is offline

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#40

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,233
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Saving in roleplaying games continued discussion from other thread

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:11.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by DragonByte Security (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch