Fallout 4 - Should It Borrow the Nemesis System?

Martin Toney of GamingBolt talks about Fallout 4, and wonders if the game should use Shadow of Mordor’s Nemesis System. What do you guys think is it a good idea?

It’s been a long time since there has been any legitimate innovation in the way a game works. What we often call amazing new mechanics are, in reality, watered down versions of mechanics that already existed and have been changed in some way to appear fresh and new. Take Assassin’s Creed Parkour and Batman’s Freeflow Combat mechanics, throw them into a blender, and you get Shadow of Mordor’s amazing combat system.

It’s that simple from a design perspective. But Shadow of Mordor, unlike many games before it, actually did do something new and awe inspiring. The “Nemesis System”. It allows for real time tracking of opponents that hold grudges, real time scaling of adversary’s that have slain you, a chain of events that you can literally trace across Mordor and follow to its grim and pointy end if you’re skilled enough to take out the target.

So I ask you. Should Fallout 4 use such a system? When presented with the idea, I admit I was torn. You see, I love the Nemesis System, I think it’s well implement, sturdy and a reliable source of entertainment. But does it really fit the Fallout universe? It does and it doesn’t. While it would be perfectly within the realms of possibility to shoot a Super Mutant in the face with a blunderbuss, only to have it survive, then find and kill you, the same can’t be said of many other enemies in the game. A lot of the time you’re killing wild creatures, other times you’re killing bandits or raiders. There’s honestly not much in the game that can genuinely withstand the amount of hostility you exude.

More information.

I don't think the nemesis system as it was implemented in Shadow of Mordor makes sense but I do like the idea of a few select foes having the opportunity to come back with a chip on their shoulder and better skills/gear. Could be weaved into the plot fairly easy and would make for a little bit more diversity if the way they came back was tied to your character and/or how you took them out.

I'm having a time trying to make the concept fit into the lore. You blow things TO BITS in these games. Having a nemesis system would just mean that I need to specialize in energy weapons for sure.

Now if somebody were to make Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines 2: The Return then yeah.

Possibly they could work something like that with an in-game A.I. system; have it learn from your behavior and tactics against its drones, responding accordingly.

Improved combat as a feature in a Bethesda game? Huh? I'll be happy to get shadows on anything but the player character.

The company has never sought to push any boundaries beyond world building.

Originally Posted by Drithius
Improved combat as a feature in a Bethesda game? Huh? I'll be happy to get shadows on anything but the player character.

The company has never sought to push any boundaries beyond world building.

That's so true. However the Hardcore "mod" in New Vegas was a great improvement over Fallout 3 combat - it made fights more challenging. Same goes for DLCs were you had a very limited amount of weapons and DLCs in New Vegas were so much better. The nemesis system in my opinion is not going to work in Fallout universe - but a few enemies coming back to fight you again will be a good idea (sometimes the enemies try to run away from you and it would be good to see them coming back with vengeance).

I hope that Fallout 4 will be OFFICIALLY announced soon because all this hype and speculation gives me anxiety attacks….

New Vegas was Obsidian.

Maybe not in Fallout which is more of a story driven experience but in the next Elder Scrolls game something like SoM's Nemesis-System can be a good idea in my opinion.

There are far more important things for them to focus on.

Originally Posted by Drithius
New Vegas was Obsidian.

I am still hoping that Bethesda will "learn" from Obsidian a bit - especially in terms of quests, characters, story telling, DLCs, weapons, introducing fractions and creating interesting NPCs. However creating worlds, level design and making open world which makes you want to explore are strong points of Bethesda.

I know I am a bit naive, but I hope it can be achieved. Bethesda has been working a very long time on this title - according to rumors - so I hope that the game will be soon revealed.

The nemesis system was a gimmick. Please don't do gimmicks - do proper meaty features that matter.

Hope springs eternal

Fallout games don't need console crap designs to be good.
Fallout is supposed to be a game with unique stuff, not some grinding clone.

The Nemesis System, as described since I've never played Mordor, might work with the Commonwealth's robotic enemies. You could "kill" one but it would report to a central computer AI making the next enemy more difficult to kill. Think of the Borg from Star Trek. You kill a robot with a pistol and the next robot has stronger armor. If you electrocute one, then it adapts to that, etc.

Originally Posted by crpgnut
The Nemesis System, as described since I've never played Mordor, might work with the Commonwealth's robotic enemies. You could "kill" one but it would report to a central computer AI making the next enemy more difficult to kill. Think of the Borg from Star Trek. You kill a robot with a pistol and the next robot has stronger armor. If you electrocute one, then it adapts to that, etc.

I think that exact thing (or simpler version of it) was implemented in Star Trek Elite Force 2 (with the Borg learning and improving).

Originally Posted by joxer
Fallout games don't need console crap designs to be good.
Fallout is supposed to be a game with unique stuff, not some grinding clone.

Considering the differences between F1,F2,F:T and F:BoS and F3/F:NV and their DLCs, the only thing common to these games is a title, so I don't know what games you are referring to as Fallout games. Nevertheless, 'console crap design' has been a defining characteristic of Fallout games for quite some time. Fallout:BoS, Fallout 3 and Operation: Anchorage are perfect examples of that.
As for the nemesis system, I don't believe it fits with F3/F:NV style of gameplay and lore.

Originally Posted by joxer
Fallout games don't need console crap designs to be good.
Fallout is supposed to be a game with unique stuff, not some grinding clone.

This has nothing to do with console design. Don't be daft.

I would prefer they focus on the RPG elements of the game. Make the game modern, but make it feel like a real RPG. Stats, perks, abilities, character backgrounds that affect certain things, dice-rolls (not going to happen, but I can dream, right?), skill checks, diverse dialog options, more equipment and character customization options (meaningful RPG options, not hairstyles ), etc.

The Nemesis system does not excite me, at all. Not for an RPG, anyway.

Originally Posted by crpgnut
The Nemesis System, as described since I've never played Mordor, might work with the Commonwealth's robotic enemies. You could "kill" one but it would report to a central computer AI making the next enemy more difficult to kill. Think of the Borg from Star Trek. You kill a robot with a pistol and the next robot has stronger armor. If you electrocute one, then it adapts to that, etc.

I think in order for any 'Nemesis' system to work with humanoids, the game AI would have to be vastly improved. Enemies would have to note what sort of attitude you displayed during conversations, what weapons you used in combat.
One problem is that players kill about 99% of all enemy characters they engage in combat. Think about it a moment. Virtually no enemies you fight ever get away with just a wound. Even if you just punch someone, it always degenerates in only one party walking away alive. Unless you deliberately break off a fight after pumping a couple rounds into an enemy and they ultimately survive, there is no basis for a nemesis to come back for you.
The only exception would be a family or faction member finding out that you killed one of their people. The only way this could happen is if someone survived the encounter, witnessed the encounter, or found physical evidence you were responsible. This would take some fancy AI to accomplish.

there was that very irritating guy in in mournhold in morrowind