Your Party

Originally Posted by Drithius
rogue, monk.. and… and barbarian I believe.

Thanks. I'm just trying to plan ahead a little.

I'm even more disappointed now as all 3 of those are classes I'd like to have. I realize I could just create my own, but I'd rather not miss out on the additional story and banter of the in-game npcs.

I'm still shocked that there's no in-game rogue.

Yeah, I imagine they intended to add one of each, but ran out of time.

You don't really need a rogue, anyone can do traps and locks.

My cipher plays that role.

I wish there were more companions in general. I enjoy having major options and a large roster to choose from.

Personally, I'd sacrifice depth for quantity, if needed in this case, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Corwin
You don't really need a rogue, anyone can do traps and locks.

Yeah, but only the Rogue gets those extra flanking skills like "backstab". I'd like to have that, but not as my main character.

Backstab's worthless, JDR… you not only have to waste a talent on it, but also yet another talent simply to make it possible in combat (2x per Rest…) without forcing your squishy rogue to initiate fights solo. Something such as vicious fighting is far more useful a talent.

Rogues in PoE are toe-to-toe scrappers and not much else.

Originally Posted by Drithius
Rogues in PoE are toe-to-toe scrappers and not much else.

Yeah, I've seen that said elsewhere as well, but I guess I was still holding on to the hope that it wasn't true. Maybe the stealth related abilities will be improved in a later patch.

I'd like to have a more traditional rogue-type character, but it seems like that's another area where they were trying to differentiate themselves from D&D.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Yeah, I've seen that said elsewhere as well, but I guess I was still holding on to the hope that it wasn't true. Maybe the stealth related abilities will be improved in a later patch.

I'd like to have a more traditional rogue-type character, but it seems like that's another area where they were trying to differentiate themselves from D&D.

Again, that misconception. The skill 'Backstab' is indeed useless, but Rogues also have 'sneak attack' (or whatever it's called), which is far from useless, and makes it the most DPS class (unless I guess if you charm groups of mobs and rest after every fight so you can keep charming every fight I'm guessing). Sneak attack *is* what most people think of as backstab, i.e. you do extra damage if you catch the enemy unaware or if they have any number of debuffs or flanked, so basically all the time.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Yeah, I've seen that said elsewhere as well, but I guess I was still holding on to the hope that it wasn't true. Maybe the stealth related abilities will be improved in a later patch.

I'd like to have a more traditional rogue-type character, but it seems like that's another area where they were trying to differentiate themselves from D&D.

I don't agree entirely with Drithius, as their abilties can be used at range - and guns tend to be somewhat absurd in their damage dealing potential. Now, the actual Backstab ability is poorly designed - but they have some very powerful finishers and I've saved my main several times using the "switch position" ability. Note that it's only been necessary because of the awful pathfinding and strange way it blocks movement once combat starts, even for your own characters when trying to switch positions. It's like invisible barriers are set up once combat begins, and the space you used to move between for scouting - is now suddenly not wide enough for you to get back behind your party.

Obviously, I haven't played all the other classes - and I *suspect* the Cipher is the superior damage dealer. But I've also done a lot of powergaming and obsessed endlessy over DPS roles. My experience is that people tend to be highly judgmental if a class does not show its potential in an obvious way.

As a ranged class, I'm finding the Rogue pretty strong in the single-target department. My guess is that he actually outdamages everyone else in that particular role, but I can't be sure.

Overall, though, the combat in PoE is a bit of a mess. The mechanics are decent in theory, but it lacks a lot of fine-tuning and convenience functions - like custom scripts.

You REALLY have to love micromanagment to fight in a way that's anywhere near optimal, and that's hardly an ideal to reach for.

I started out with a cipher but eventually realized that I wasn't enjoying the companions that much. So I started over with a custom 4-character party on hard (since they have optimized stats) and couldn't be happier. I pick up the companions occasionally for quests. Durance and Grieving Mother only need to be present during camping for their story-lines to progress, as far as I know, so I usually pick them up before I'm resting in a tavern or at my fortress. Anyway, here's my LMK+P team:

The Lady, the Mage, the Knight and the Priestess

Lilyana

Class: Ranger
Race: Wood Elf
Role: Single-target damage, support

A huntress from the Living Lands, knowledgeable in all matters concerning survival. She uses a hunting bow and wears light armor. Her pet is a stag called Dáinn.

Mistral

Class: Wizard
Race: Savannah Human
Role: AoE Damage

A former merchant from Old Vailia, Mistral knows a lot about traps and is an elemental force. He excels at fire and ice magic. He wears a robe and uses wands to great effect in case he runs out of spells.

Kyle

Class: Fighter
Race: Meadow Human
Role: Tank

Originally a mercenary, he's very athletic and uses a sword and shield, as well as the heaviest armor he can find. While he concentrates on defensive abilities, he is also a very good sword fighter (Knight Weapon Focus, Spec and Mastery).

Aileya

Class: Priest
Race: Pale Elf
Role: Healer, Buffs & Debuffs

A mystic from the White that Wends who is well versed in all sorts of lore. She uses a scepter and wears a robe and basically keeps everyone alive.




Combat usually goes like this:

- Kyle runs forward and makes sure to engage as many foes as possible. Everyone else stays behind.
- Aileya casts Interdiction
- Dainn makes sure no enemy can break out and get to the casters.
- Lilyana picks out single, dangerous targets - mostly casters - to lock them down quickly.
- Mistral casts Slicken and after that unleashes AoE ice or fire, depending on enemy resistances

After that it can often get more dynamic and depending on the situation and enemy setup they make use of most of their spells and abilities. Obviously easier fights are mostly auto-attack (and my casters seem to be regenerating all first-level spells after a fight now at level 10 — is that a bug or a feature? Either way, it's very convenient.) But I still find all fights very enjoyable. Everyone does what they are best at, I love stuff like that. Mistral is very vulnerable if something does break through, however. He might have to include more defensive spells in his spell book, but Aileya can often help him out.


For my next playthrough I plan to go with another, more sinister 4-character party:

- Sylene, Death Godlike rogue skilled to be an assassin. No defensive skills, just pure single-target damage with ruffian weapons. I'll probably not take backstab, but I'm not sure yet.
- Nighe, Death (maybe fire) Godlike Paladin. I hope to be able to make her tank with a two-handed sword — she's based on my WoW Deathknight.
- Guldorn, Island or Coastal Aumaua Cipher (based on my WoW Warlock)
- Sharrak, Island Aumaua Druid (based on my WoW Shaman).

The latter three will all make sure to pick up spells and talents that help Sylene do damage.

Originally Posted by Arhu
I started out with a cipher but eventually realized that I wasn't enjoying the companions that much. So I started over with a custom 4-character party on hard (since they have optimized stats) and couldn't be happier. I pick up the companions occasionally for quests. Durance and Grieving Mother only need to be present during camping for their story-lines to progress, as far as I know, so I usually pick them up before I'm resting in a tavern or at my fortress.

Well that's not quite the whole of it though. There is also plenty of inter-party chatter, all over the place, with different companions. To me that alone is worth not having a perfectly min-maxed custom party. Hearing Eder and others fool around with Aloth's "problem" is hilarious.

Originally Posted by wolfing
Well that's not quite the whole of it though. There is also plenty of inter-party chatter, all over the place, with different companions. To me that alone is worth not having a perfectly min-maxed custom party. Hearing Eder and others fool around with Aloth's "problem" is hilarious.

Yeah, I got a glimpse at that. Still, that doesn't work for me for some reason, given that the main character is a husk. I'd rather customize all my characters or have all characters be defined and chatter along. Otherwise it doesn't really click for me. Had the same problem in Drakensang and similar games; Baldur's Gate I originally played in MP mode without companions.

Actually, I'd love it if there was a way to completely customize the companions and still have all their dialogues. I read that it's more or less possible with IE-Mod, as far as I know, although I'm not sure if you can customize their portraits and models… It would be great if you could set your custom characters' personalities at character creation and have them comment on various situations accordingly.

Custom character + companions constitutes a compromise.

The way I would like these type of games worked is if when you encounter a recruitable character, it popped a character creation screen where you create the character, possibly with the class locked (for plot) but letting you do the 'level ups' up to your level.

Part of the charm of companions in games like Baldur's Gate and Pillars is that they each have their own unique stats and starting levels. Having the player customize that would probably be one of the worst things the developers could do, in my opinion, of course.

If you want a fully-customized party while keeping the dialog and quests, maybe they could add an option at the party-creation screen for importing "Personalities" and stuff. That's actually a great idea for a future game, like a new Icewind Dale perhaps, where you create your party and then assign them personalities from a pool of them, which all come with dialog and personal quests. Would be a lot of work but it could be a core feature of a future game. Good idea, whoever said that.

Originally Posted by wolfing
The way I would like these type of games worked is if when you encounter a recruitable character, it popped a character creation screen where you create the character, possibly with the class locked (for plot) but letting you do the 'level ups' up to your level.

Well, for Tactica: MoF I have actually kind of solved this problem, but it is not based on the standard level up system so it is a bit easier.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Part of the charm of companions in games like Baldur's Gate and Pillars is that they each have their own unique stats and starting levels. Having the player customize that would probably be one of the worst things the developers could do, in my opinion, of course.

If you want a fully-customized party while keeping the dialog and quests, maybe they could add an option at the party-creation screen for importing "Personalities" and stuff. That's actually a great idea for a future game, like a new Icewind Dale perhaps, where you create your party and then assign them personalities from a pool of them, which all come with dialog and personal quests. Would be a lot of work but it could be a core feature of a future game. Good idea, whoever said that.

unique stats and starting levels? pfft!
What's important about companions is their personality/history/quest/class. Maybe you could lock some things, like when you meet the ranger, the choice of pet is locked, but you should be able to do the whole level up and assigning of stats.

Originally Posted by wolfing
unique stats and starting levels? pfft!
What's important about companions is their personality/history/quest/class. Maybe you could lock some things, like when you meet the ranger, the choice of pet is locked, but you should be able to do the whole level up and assigning of stats.

You do control their level ups though. You just don't have any control over their starting stats.

Originally Posted by JDR13
You do control their level ups though. You just don't have any control over their starting stats.

You control the levelups after you find them, so then you always have to make the decision … do I go with these inefficiently leveled companions for their chatter or do I go with the properly built self-made generic hirelings? Which doesn't have to be that way. What I propose is that when you meet a companion, *you* do their level-up from level 1 up to your level (class locked). Best of both worlds.

They could just make customization optional, as a setting at the beginning of the game.