Elder Scrolls Online

I guess it depends on whether staying true to the spirit of TES lore is "pissing" on it.

Expecting lore that vast and non-specific to be absolutely precise across all games is pretty naive, if you ask me.

He's quoting from a source that's partially fan-based, AFAIK.

I mean, really

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
For combat, I think ESO is superior when it comes to melee - but inferior when it comes to stealth/archery.

Have you played since they added the Legerdemain skill line?

——

About the Lore, his biggest annoyance is that Cyrodiil is not a jungle, something that was retconned by Bethesda themselves when they made Oblivion. The rest is rebuked by someone later in the thread.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Have you played since they added the Legendermain skill line?

Yes, but I'm not talking about thievery - but stealth-related combat. I don't think stealth and detection works as well as it does in Skyrim - and obviously you can't have instant-kill stuff in a PvE/PvP game, so they're not as powerful as I like assassin stuff to be.

Archery, however, is even weaker in terms of feel and flow. I think Skyrim does archery better than pretty much any other game - and I love using a bow

About the Lore, his biggest annoyance is that Cyrodiil is not a jungle, something that was retconned by Bethesda themselves when they made Oblivion. The rest is rebuked by someone later in the thread.

Indeed.

While I'm by no means an expert on lore in TES - I do recognise when something breaks the spirit of a particular style - and I think ESO feels very much like a typical TES game in terms of the lore.

I've read maybe 50 books or so in TES games, as I sometimes get the urge to immerse myself - and I tend to like them fine, with a few being really cool. I've had the same experience with ESO, more or less.

I'm much more into reading journals and quest-related stuff, though, and I can say for sure that ESO is just like the other games in that way.

In terms of dialogue and NPCs, it's actually better than most TES games for my part, as I tend to care about the quests and the characters - which was rare when I played Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim (there ARE exceptions). I seem to recall liking Redguard more in this way, but I could be imagining things. For Battlespire, I don't remember anything about the writing. I just remember it running like a particularly drowsy dog on my top-end hardware.

Of the post-2000 TES games, I think Morrowind failed the most when it comes to engaging me in the quests and the NPCs.

Oblivion had several embarrasing moments and was also quite bad in that way. The only reason I'd rate it above Morrowind for writing would be the notable exception of the Dark Brotherhood questline, which I thought was brilliant when I played it.

Again, to me, Skyrim is the best TES game overall - and also in terms of dialogue and NPCs for the singleplayer series.

Then again, I was never much of a fan of Bethesda writing. They have a very inconsistent style - I find.

That said, it's been ages since I played Morrowind. I can't rule out something really great happening during a conversation - I've just forgotten about it.

It's also fair to mention that I do NOT like "weird" alien stuff - and I absolutely hated the cliffhangers and those awful little worm/caterpillar beings.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Yes, but I'm not talking about thievery - but stealth-related combat. I don't think stealth and detection works as well as it does in Skyrim - and obviously you can't have instant-kill stuff in a PvE/PvP game, so they're not as powerful as I like assassin stuff to be.

Archery, however, is even weaker in terms of feel and flow. I think Skyrim does archery better than pretty much any other game - and I love using a bow

You can one-shot things with a bow while in stealth in PvE, as long as they are normal mobs. I've done it in with a DK Bosmer at least.

The archery in ESO does kinda sucks though.

Originally Posted by azarhal
You can one-shot things with a bow while in stealth in PvE, as long as they are normal mobs. I've done it in with a DK Bosmer at least.

Yes, I've done that too - but those are normal mobs

In Skyrim, you could assassinate really tough humanoid enemies if you invested in the right perks and used powerful weapons. You had specific melee-oriented animations with throat-slitting and stuff.

For MMOs, they have to keep that kind of thing in check - and because of latency issues and what not, stealth is never really a completely smooth or precise experience. Essentially, it's too easy to stay hidden and sneaking isn't much of a challenge. It feels very gamey.

That's not to say it's bad for an MMO, but I just think Skyrim is much better as a stealth game - even without being anywhere near perfect.

You have to mod Skyrim to get a proper stealth experience.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Yes, I've done that too - but those are normal mobs

In Skyrim, you could assassinate really tough humanoid enemies if you invested in the right perks and used powerful weapons.

Never been able to do that in Skyrim on not-normal mob. Even with a cheated character. the level scaling made sure of that…

Originally Posted by azarhal
Never been able to do that in Skyrim on not-normal mob. Even with a cheated character. the level scaling made sure of that…

You can do it

Level scaling wasn't as rigid, though - and you needed the right skills/perks and a good dagger or similar to do it.

Not sure what you mean by not-normal. I'm just talking about areas with humanoid enemies way above your own level.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Not sure what you mean by not-normal. I'm just talking about areas with humanoid enemies way above your own level.

Skyrim has two types of creatures: normal with normal HP/lvl and bosses which are HP sponge (usually some bounty target). Those bosses are what I mean by not-normal, you can't one-shoot them, they have too much HP (x16 dual wielding sneak attack didn't even take off more than 1/5 HP of one of them, the bow sneak attack was worst, frustrating when the rest of the cave mobs are one-shot).

I also couldn't one-shot normal Forsworns with a maxed/cheated character (using sneak+ conjured bow with all perks and a modded three that increase the damage more than vanillia). It's like I was back to Oblivion making porcupines.

Dart I was very clear that I felt the lore was "deeper" due to the level of integration into the world and the main plot. Not the number of freaking books. Apparently you don't like that answer and prefer to instead opine on your amazing levels of cognitive competence. Aka you are still a tool.

Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002
Dart I was very clear that I felt the lore was "deeper" due to the level of integration into the world and the main plot. Not the number of freaking books. Apparently you don't like that answer and prefer to instead opine on your amazing levels of cognitive competence. Aka you are still a tool.

Still at it, then? I'm the one derailing? Really

I have no problem with your answer, it just doesn't make any sense in terms of depth. Not to me, anyway. Integration into the main plot? Fine. Depth? I don't see it.

Even so, why can't you appreciate that other people might find Skyrim lore as deep when it's got 50% more of it?

But that wasn't the answer I was looking for. I asked you why I'm ignorant about Morrowind when I say the style of lore is similar across all TES games.

You started the derailment and we both know it. I was trying to help by giving my honest opinion about how ESO compares to the other games - and you had to enter and insult me.

You said I was ignorant because I said the lore is similar. Are you still disputing it's similar? If so, can you see how that's simply your opinion - and not something that would make me ignorant about the game itself.

In short, can you be fair about this or not?

Originally Posted by azarhal
Skyrim has two types of creatures: normal with normal HP/lvl and bosses which are HP sponge (usually some bounty target). Those bosses are what I mean by not-normal, you can't one-shoot them, they have too much HP (x16 dual wielding sneak attack didn't even take off more than 1/5 HP of one of them, the bow sneak attack was worst, frustrating when the rest of the cave mobs are one-shot).

I also couldn't one-shot normal Forsworns with a maxed/cheated character (using sneak+ conjured bow with all perks and a modded three that increase the damage more than vanillia). It's like I was back to Oblivion making porcupines.

Even so, you can one-shot powerful enemies way above your level - which isn't possible in ESO. Well, not to my knowledge, anyway.

I said on Morrowind you are ignorant as I don't think you have played it. That is not intended to be an insult. I insulted you later for other reasons. Sure we can play fair. But part of that is you should at least play the game before you critique with such conviction.

Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002
I said on Morrowind you are ignorant as I don't think you have played it. That is not intended to be an insult. I insulted you later for other reasons. Sure we can play fair. But part of that is you should at least play the game before you critique with such conviction.

So, when I say I played it for weeks upon release, I'm lying?

I've played it again several times - and I've tried a fair share of both expansions. Didn't help much at all.

Could you point out what part of my criticism is unfair?

I hope I'm wrong, but it really sounds like you simply can't handle that I don't like the game - and you have to desperately invent bullshit reasons why that makes me ignorant, somehow.

I don't think 2 weeks is sufficient to read and play all the lore the game has to offer.

I'd argue that all the games share the same lore. It's the same universe, after all. It contains references to the same events and it all builds off of each other.

You could say, for example, that the new lore the Oblivion introduces is of lesser quality than that of Morrowind, but the lore that was introduced in Morrowind is still valid in Oblivion, and The Elder Scrolls Online, for that matter.

I do sense a bit of Morrowind elitism in this thread.

There's certainly a touch of "my opinion, that I can't really account for, is fact and you're ignorant if you don't agree"

Not terribly surprising, though.

Anyway, I think I've wasted enough time on this.

I still recommend ESO if you're looking for a lore-heavy TES game and you can deal with the inherent MMO weaknesses.

I think what people mean is that they feel the story in Morrowind is better than in later Elder Scrolls games because it is tied up more into the lore. That sounds a lot better, actually.

Back to ESO, I have found that the MMO weaknesses are not so strong in this one. There are many, many self-contained stories and it's not just an NPC waiting for its button to be pushed so that a wall of text can explain that he needs X amount of Y killed. It's really nothing like any other MMO that's I've played before.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
Back to ESO, I have found that the MMO weaknesses are not so strong in this one. There are many, many self-contained stories and it's not just an NPC waiting for its button to be pushed so that a wall of text can explain that he needs X amount of Y killed. It's really nothing like any other MMO that's I've played before.

At heart, it's still very much an MMO - and it has to be. It means there are clear restrictions of power due to balance, and there's a distinct predictability in terms of progression and what you can expect to encounter.

For instance, you'll never - EVER - go into a dungeon and find a fantastic item that will boost your power tremendously.

You also won't encounter a monster that's not suitable for your level - unless you willingly go into a high-level area, in which case the mechanics won't allow you to defeat a high-level enemy, so you'll just die.

This makes for a somewhat limited feeling of exploration and freeform gameplay, which is pretty counter to TES.

But it's better than most at hiding these things, and if you're not a seasoned MMO gamer - it can work well as an illusion of being a singleplayer game.

It's better at it than SWtoR, that's for sure.

That said, I still think Secret World does a better job when it comes to atmosphere and story - it just sucks when it comes to combat, progression and the end-game.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
For instance, you'll never - EVER - go into a dungeon and find a fantastic item that will boost your power tremendously.

You also won't encounter a monster that's not suitable for your level - unless you willingly go into a high-level area, in which case the mechanics won't allow you to defeat a high-level enemy, so you'll just die.

I'm sorry, how is this different from a single-player RPG? Even in TW3 you have level limitations on what gear you can use. I mean, even in an MMO, you need to find some stuff some of the time that makes you go, ooooh now I'm stronger! Is it really that different?

That said, I still think Secret World does a better job when it comes to atmosphere and story - it just sucks when it comes to combat, progression and the end-game.

Yeah, I gotta start that game up again some time, too. The story just started to get really interesting. Definitely another MMO that's not the same as all the rest, but I like that ESO has bigger zones.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
I'm sorry, how is this different from a single-player RPG? Even in TW3 you have level limitations on what gear you can use. I mean, even in an MMO, you need to find some stuff some of the time that makes you go, ooooh now I'm stronger! Is it really that different?

Yes, it's very different. In TW3, you can increase your power tremendously by getting the right gear. The Witcher school gear can change you from wimp to very powerful, for instance and the very first example is available at level 2 even though it's 6th level gear. MMOs do this too, but to a much smaller extent, because they depend on a very rigid power curve for the game to stay challenging in the designated area. You can't go to a higher level region and survive no matter how great your gear is, unless you're near the appropriate level. You can do that in TW3 from a pretty early stage and you can do that in all TES games.