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November 16th, 2015, 20:19
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
You don't know that ESO and TOR use the same engine?

Zenimax Online lied about only using the Hero Engine for prototyping over blacklash from TOR in 2013, you get a big "Powered by the Hero Engine" when you start ESO. It's probably not the same version though.
I know some people claim they lied about it, but I've never seen any actual evidence of that.

But I'm not talking about whatever base engine is the foundation, I'm talking about the actual end result.

The new X-Com uses the Unreal engine - but I definitely wouldn't say it's the same engine as, say, Bioshock Infinite. There's the core engine and there's what you do with the engine.

You might as well say that Morrowind uses the same engine as Fallout 4 - because they're both based on a foundation that's more than 10 years old.

To me, what matters is how the games play, how they look - and how they perform.

In that way, SWtOR is one ugly clunky mess - and it struggles when a dozen players are doing combat near each other, regardless of your hardware. So, whatever they did with the HeroEngine - it's just awful.

ESO, however, is very pretty, very fluid and very smooth with 50+ players on screen.

If they really did use the same engine as a foundation, then the SWtOR engine is even more of a joke - considering the great work Zenimax did with it.

Please note that I'm not saying SWtOR is a bad game, because I don't think so. It simply doesn't look, feel or play like a game that had hundreds of millions of dollars as a budget.

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November 16th, 2015, 20:29
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
I know some people claim they lied about it, but I've never seen any actual evidence of that.
The evidence isn't that hard to find…and it was said in 2012, not 2013.

Anyway, that's off topic.
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November 16th, 2015, 20:56
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
The evidence isn't that hard to find…and it was said in 2012, not 2013.

Anyway, that's off topic.
Ehm, did you even read that article yourself? It confirms that they used the engine to prototype features while they were developing their own engine at the same time. Meaning ESO is using their own custom engine.

Yes, it's off topic and completely irrelevant - but your brought it up, so I assume you had a point.

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November 16th, 2015, 21:27
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Ehm, did you even read that article yourself? It confirms that they used the engine to prototype features while they were developing their own engine at the same time. Meaning ESO is using their own custom engine.

Yes, it's off topic and completely irrelevant - but your brought it up, so I assume you had a point.
Man, you are making me laugh today. You are asking about evidence that Zenimax Online lied and you go an believe the lie they spouted in 2012 about it.

I don't need to prove ESO use the Hero Engine, it does that very well its own with its Powered by the Hero Engine start up splash screen.
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November 16th, 2015, 21:53
Originally Posted by azarhal View Post
Man, you are making me laugh today. You are asking about evidence that Zenimax Online lied and you go an believe the lie they spouted in 2012 about it.

I don't need to prove ESO use the Hero Engine, it does that very well its own with its Powered by the Hero Engine start up splash screen.
You still have the habit of laughing at people when they demonstrate how you don't really think before making claims about things you have no way of knowing. Just like you did with DOS 2 and claiming to understand how everything will work, including things like haste.

Once again, you misunderstand.

I don't actually believe anything in relation to this - because I have no way of knowing and the details are irrelevant, considering the actual games in question. I'm saying there's no evidence they've made ESO using the HeroEngine except as a "whiteboard" as Firor explains - and you've utterly failed to provide any evidence.

You're just calling them liars because YOU believe things based on little to no evidence.

They could be using a tiny fraction of the codebase - and they'd be obligated to have that message because of trademark laws. An engine isn't a complete game - and when you use it to prototype features, it doesn't mean you're using a complete version of the engine as a foundation for the entire game. They could easily be using bits and pieces of it.

Much like SWtOR used an early and incomplete version of HeroEngine to build their own custom engine, only the end result is terrible.

Essentially, both games use custom engines BASED on HeroEngine - which is the only way to build games as complex as MMOs if you're going to use any existing engine as a starting point.

You and I can never know how much of the original code they're actually using - so making claims that they've "lied" and refusing to accept their very clear explanation because you feel like it, is not a very impressive way to behave, if you ask me. It makes you look biased.

If you had the slightest understanding of how engines work, you would never - ever - claim that ESO and SWtOR were using the same engine, unless you were blind. It's painfully obvious that ESO is using a different rendering engine, for instance - most likely their own custom renderer. If I had to venture a guess, SWtOR does NOT use a custom renderer - as the performance is abysmal and clearly the amount of animations involved is just impractical for what they're trying to do with them. That's why the game bogs down completely during PvP combat involving more than a handful of players.

They might have started off with something similar, but that's completely irrelevant - and has nothing to do with what I said.

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November 20th, 2015, 01:19
The Companions nerf is really starting to split the player base big time.
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November 20th, 2015, 12:50
Interesting that so many people prefer to have the game play itself

I guess that tells us something about how much people enjoy the actual gameplay.

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November 20th, 2015, 14:38
No, it's very much *not* about "playing the game itself".

You might argue that SWTOR is an MMO, and therfore combat is one of its traction points ( I have yet to see an MMO with the social aspect as an traction point, like in SIMs, because Blizzard set the "industry standard" of MMOS HAVING to be extremely combat focused ! ) ,
but the problem lies in fact with the STORY PLAYERS PLayers Those who LOVE good stories ( like me ! ) and have limited time because they do "have a life". They actually prefer story over combat !
To them, the combat in SWTOR is an rather "necessary evvil", so to say. The are swallowing it, because it's … just part of the game mechanics. I'm sure that they'd prefer social things over the combat - but that'll never be. Because of the set "industry standard", no sane developer believes in social interacction being a thing at all.
And it's NOT that social thing wouldn't sell ! Just take a look at the SIMs !
It's merely so that MMOs are by males for males - and in a "men's world", EVERYTHING is about a) competition, b) combat as a way to becoma "a man" in MMOs.
And Adrenaline, of course.

Every combat-heavy game is imho the epitome of an patriarchicbelief ( -system ) or even society.

Combat and status symbols are THE element of competition among males !

And that's why there is NO MMO that has few combat ! Because even nowadays, games are made by men for men !
And because of that, no sane man would implement too much of social interaction into ANY MMO !

So, people argueing that the nerf of Companions is good because it makes the game harder are in my view those who still believe that "combat is good". In its essence, they are still patriarchic oriented men.

Those who want Companions still to be overpoered are those who

- have not much time for playing in RL
- prefer stories over combat (like Adventure game players)
- possibly prefer social interaction over combat (this is just a theory of mine)
- have I missed something ?

That's how I see it.
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Last edited by Alrik Fassbauer; November 20th, 2015 at 14:50.
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November 20th, 2015, 17:01
So, people argueing that the nerf of Companions is good because it makes the game harder are in my view those who still believe that "combat is good". In its essence, they are still patriarchic oriented men.
Are you calling all the female gamers who enjoy combat patriarch oriented men?

That's a bold statement - coming from you Alrik

My girlfriend adores combat - and that's the thing she enjoys more than anything, even crafting which she also likes a lot. She can't enter combat without some vocal statement of "kill them!!!!".

I don't know if I should be worried or not.

Suffice to say that you don't know much about people.

In any case, I think we all know you don't enjoy combat - but I'm afraid it still takes up 90% of pretty much any CRPG - and that's what people want.

Personally, I don't love combat - but I do enjoy a reasonable challenge. But for that, I also need a compelling game overall - and I don't think SWtOR is good enough to warrant the investment required.

So, I'm actually fine with the combat being easy - but there are limits. Based on my time with 4.0 - they went WAY overboard with those companions.

The game literally played itself during encounters. I didn't have to do anything except get close to enemies and my companion would take care of the rest.

I'm sure you think that's great - but you could at least TRY to appreciate that some people actually enjoy a little challenge now and again. They don't have to be murdering warlike men out to kill you or take over society in blood craze, you know.

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November 22nd, 2015, 13:28
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
My girlfriend adores combat - and that's the thing she enjoys more than anything, even crafting which she also likes a lot. She can't enter combat without some vocal statement of "kill them!!!!".

I don't know if I should be worried or not.
She's rare - that for sure.
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November 22nd, 2015, 17:59
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
She's rare - that for sure.
Having to deal with him every day? Rare is an understatement. Either its a care worker, or indeed rare like a unicorn.
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December 9th, 2015, 03:50
Meh…. I remained indifferent to both TOR and ESO…. A new , superior MMO is coming out and its called Lost Ark
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