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Default System Shock 3 - Warren Spector joins Otherside

February 18th, 2016, 03:58
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Yes, I am sure I can find a lot of people in the world whose tastes differ from mine. A good selling game does not make it great. Quite the contrary sometimes. Neither Torment nor the System Shocks were big sellers.

But we've had this discussion before, so I am wondering why you are making this point?

Yes, the world has a tendency to make things that appeal to the lowest common denominator. This we know.
We've had this discussion before, meaning you and I? Don't remember that.

Anyway I never said anything about the quality of the game. I said it wasn't for me and that it had a small cult following.

I agree # of sales isn't always indicative of game quality. However if a game has low sale it only stands to reason it would also have a smaller following.

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February 18th, 2016, 04:08
"we", as many of us on this site. Have you not read or participated?

I disagree with "small cult" following. Like I said many RPG enthusiasts recognize it as a milestone in FPS RPG gaming.

It's like saying those that appreciate the significance of the first airplane a small cult.
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February 18th, 2016, 04:13
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
"we", as many of us on this site. Have you not read or participated?
Oh, if you've all already decided then your right, why would I add my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
I disagree with "small cult" following. Like I said many RPG enthusiasts recognize it as a milestone in FPS RPG gaming.

It's like saying those that appreciate the significance of the first airplane a small cult.
The " significance of the first airplane" and a video game, really?

This is going nowhere and I don't even care about this game, as I said in my first post this is good for fans of the game and I hope you all enjoy it.

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February 18th, 2016, 04:17
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Anyway I'm sure you can find plenty of people that wouldn't put the game in their top 100
Those would most likely be people that have never played it.
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February 18th, 2016, 05:18
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
It's no surprise that it took so long for another to be made. Doing a little reading it wasn't much of a commercial success. Just another old game with a small cult following.
System Shock 2 was released in 1999 and Looking Glass Studios (one of the two development companies behind the game - the other one was Irrational Games) went out of business in 2000, with subsequently the System Shock IP going to limbo. Night Dive Studios secured the rights only in 2013 and Otherside Entertainment licensed from them, announcing the new game in December 2015. This can probably explain why the game didn't have a proper sequel after System Shock 2.

Also, I blame bad marketing/bad PR for the unsuccesful commercial sales. It is known Looking Glass had financial problems back at that time, and perhaps they chose not to spend too much with game marketing.

Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Good for the fans of the games though.


Sakichop, I recommend playing System Shock 2. The game hasn't aged well (actually only Corwin aged well but he's not here reading this, is he ? ), but you can mod SS2 for a less ugly experience. But above and beyond that, I think the game has a great history, IMHO worthy to be transformed into a movie. I don't even know why this possibility was never ever mentioned by Hollywood or by gaming websites. I mean: damn, they made a Max Payne movie, they made a Warcraft movie, why they didn't think of making a System Shock movie ?
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February 18th, 2016, 06:27
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
This is going nowhere and I don't even care about this game, as I said in my first post this is good for fans of the game and I hope you all enjoy it.
Yes, you don't seem to be understanding that equating RPG enthusiasts as a "small cult" as being offensive.
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February 18th, 2016, 06:37
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
You mean those list they put out that most here bash. Anyway I'm sure you can find plenty of people that wouldn't put the game in their top 100, so I'm not sure publications putting it in their top 20 signifies anything.

Anyway, I'm not trying to piss off fans of the game but everything I've read showed low sales for the first game and even worst sales for the second. That alone would limit the size of its following.
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…okay for my 2 seconds of seriousness….I hate horror games normally, but I loved System Shock 2. I wasn't a huge fan of System Shock 1, but that was because I played it about 15 years too late I found a bug and never finished. Traveling inside of the Many? in SS2 was just a creepy experience.
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February 18th, 2016, 07:05
I disagree that SS2 hasn't aged well. In fact, I'm not sure if it's ever been surpassed as far as FPS-RPG hybrids go.

Even visually, I think it still holds up well for its age. There are some decent texture mods out there though for anyone who's not satisfied with the original graphics.
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February 18th, 2016, 07:19
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Yes, you don't seem to be understanding that equating RPG enthusiasts as a "small cult" as being offensive.
Probably because I never said anything about rpg enthusiasts which I am one of. I've always only been talking about system shock fan base which doesn't encapsulate all rpg enthusiasts.

Secondly, I don't think you know what cult following means. Have you never heard of cult movies. A cult following of a game, movie, music etc. just means it has a dedicated hardcore group of fans and usually is something thats not mainstream.

Givin system shocks low sales ( lack of support by the mainstream)and small but rabid fan base. I'd say it qualifies. Saying it has a cult following is not an insult to the game or its fans and has nothing to do with actual cults.

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February 18th, 2016, 10:18
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
Probably because I never said anything about rpg enthusiasts which I am one of. I've always only been talking about system shock fan base which doesn't encapsulate all rpg enthusiasts.

Secondly, I don't think you know what cult following means. Have you never heard of cult movies. A cult following of a game, movie, music etc. just means it has a dedicated hardcore group of fans and usually is something thats not mainstream.

Givin system shocks low sales ( lack of support by the mainstream)and small but rabid fan base. I'd say it qualifies. Saying it has a cult following is not an insult to the game or its fans and has nothing to do with actual cults.
Well, I am not sure what is a small cult following to you. But for example System Shock 2 was re-released on Steam and GOG.

On Steam alone it has http://steamspy.com/app/238210 695,367 people who bought it. Yes that is right 695,367 bought a 14 year old game when it was re-released on steam. So does that sound like a game with a "small" cult following to you ?
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February 18th, 2016, 11:18
Saki, your opinion re. SS2 (which you haven't played) deviating from the norm among us, doesn't make us a cult following.
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February 18th, 2016, 15:26
When I posted my excitement when SS3 was first announced, a fellow poster gave me a hard time for jumping the gun. So now I ask, "can I get excited yet?!" This is terrific news. I am sure many of you are aware of the phrase "anticipation is half the fun." Being excited for this reminds me of being a teenager and looking at the back page ad for Pool of Radiance in Commodore magazine for about a year before it came out. And, hey, that lived up to the hype… Unfortunately, because I insist on playing games spoiler-free, I will soon have to tune out news coverage on this game and just wait for release.
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February 18th, 2016, 18:59
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Well, I am not sure what is a small cult following to you. But for example System Shock 2 was re-released on Steam and GOG.

On Steam alone it has http://steamspy.com/app/238210 695,367 people who bought it. Yes that is right 695,367 bought a 14 year old game when it was re-released on steam. So does that sound like a game with a "small" cult following to you ?
Actually, yes. I based my statement on original game sales which the best I could find put them at less than 200,000. Then SS2 sold only 60,000 in the first 6 month. That doesn't sound like there was a huge fan base rushing to by the second game on release. If my numbers are wrong, please correct me. Thats the best I could find on a quick google search.

As for your data. It shows that 3 times the number of people bought the re-release. My guess is because it was 9.99 and I've seen it as low as 2.99 I believe. So was it diehard fans buying it or people grabbing it because it was cheap and they heard it was good. So why not add it to the library in case one day you will play it. I have several games in my steam library for that reason. So, let's see…

Looking further in to the data you supplied shows 43% never even started the game and the median play time was 1.14 hours.

Givin that, I stand by what I said. Cult following denotes the most hard core of fans, not the casual fan or the guy that played it and moved on, so when I say small cult following it does not encompass every fan of the game. I love wizardry and would say it also has a small cult following here in the US. I even bought a PS2 for the sole purpose of playing the very average Japanese import wizardry Tale of the forsaken land. That's the kind of fan I think cult following alludes to.

Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Saki, your opinion re. SS2 (which you haven't played) deviating from the norm among us, doesn't make us a cult following.
first off, I want to say I haven't said anything negative about this game. I'm not pulling a Joxer and bashing it in every thread and then running off. I simply said it wasn't for me and based on what I looked up it has a small cult following.

Second, I never said you or anyone here was part of the cult following. I have no idea of your level of interest in the game, although it's becoming apparent.

Third,You seem to see "cult following" as a negative. I always thought it was a compliment and it was meant that way. Most games, even ones with better sales never reach the level of acquiring a cult following as they are played and then forgotten, not discussed 20 years later on forums. I think of it as a badge of honor, not an insult, sorry if you see it otherwise.

If it helps you they even describe the game on their steam page as a "cult classic"

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February 18th, 2016, 21:58
It just doesn't seem like "cult classic" when most here within the long time RPG community consider it a classic, UNLESS you consider all of us cultists. Just doesn't make logical sense. If it were only a minority in the community that thought highly of SS2, then yes, I would consider SS2 a cult classic. But yours is the first opinion I remember from here expressing dislike of (or disinterest in) SS2. So the moniker "cult" seems to be from your personal viewpoint rather than from the point of view of the community.
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February 18th, 2016, 22:01
Well anyway.

I wonder if the game will actually be any good. I'm not big on being a believer in developer super heroes. I'm curious about how they will give this game a fresh setting and story.
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February 18th, 2016, 22:05
There is that concern as noted above.
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February 18th, 2016, 22:23
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Yeah I love chocolate but don't play to many classic games anymore.

Both games were released GOG & Steam, but I keep reading players recommending mods. Some claim both games are unplayable without them. So any opinions?
I played System Shock 2 for the first time this Autumn. You played Bioshock, right? Its more of an rpg than Bioshock, since there is a skill system. In gameplay terms its a lot like a better Bioshock. I also thought the story was less predictable, and less black and white, so I liked it better. The graphics are extremely dated though, so you have to look past those. The endgame is also really tough, but that's pretty typical of a lot of old school games.
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February 18th, 2016, 23:23
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
It just doesn't seem like "cult classic" when most here within the long time RPG community consider it a classic, UNLESS you consider all of us cultists. Just doesn't make logical sense. If it were only a minority in the community that thought highly of SS2, then yes, I would consider SS2 a cult classic. But yours is the first opinion I remember from here expressing dislike of (or disinterest in) SS2. So the moniker "cult" seems to be from your personal viewpoint rather than from the point of view of the community.
Yes, all of you here are part of a cult.

you are aware that there is a world beyond RpgWatch right?

My personal viewpoint? of course my posts are my personal viewpoint but did you miss the part where I said they list it as a cult classic on their steam page. How is that my personal viewpoint?

no need to answer this is possibly the dumbest exchange I've been involved in here to date.

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February 18th, 2016, 23:24
I really enjoyed SS2. It's spooky and the setting is fairly interesting. I think the quality of the setting deteriorates as you progress though, especially when you get to the second ship. The thought and effort put into the mapping goes downhill. I don't remember much about the goofy ending anymore. The main issues I have with the game design are the annoying respawn and gun degradation. They can be disabled/tweaked. I've seen some people bring up solid arguments against the RPG stats and balance too, but that's a bit more subjective.

SS1 is sort of an Ultima Underworld for sci-fi fans. I don't really get much enjoyment from it. It's too cheesy and the controls suck. Apparently modders have upgraded the control scheme in recent years though (which is what is used in the re-releases). The game certainly would be mindblowing in 1994 however.
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February 18th, 2016, 23:42
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
did you miss the part where I said they list it as a cult classic on their steam page. How is that my personal viewpoint?

no need to answer this is possibly the dumbest exchange I've been involved in here to date.
Yes, I agree that copy pasting poor descriptions of RPGs from the Steam store and failing to recognize it would qualify as a dumb exchange. :/
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