Wasteland - Chris Avellone @MyFavouriteGame

Even in tabletop games there is a movement away from random rolling of stats, to the point where it's more the exception rather than the rule. But there are enough people left who like it that it will probably never disapear completely.

But I agree that random stats have their place in games, but that the place is usually not RPGs with extended play times. They are great for disposable characters to make each one more interesting and unique, but not as great when they just create an incentive to reroll 10,000 times until your character is perfect at everything.

I just replayed Temple of Elemental Evil with the new CoE mods and Temple+. It took me over an hour to roll my party of eight to get them where I liked it. I had more fun in that hour then I have had in some newer games

Originally Posted by sea
Likewise, in games with a lead protagonist and which are story-driven, I think it's fair to say that a class system tends to pigeonhole players in ways they might not like. I mean, even Morrowind's class system arguably doesn't even matter past the game's opening stages - you can always grind a little and turn your mage into a warrior, or just buy skill training.

From Daggerfall onwards we have an example of a class system done wrong. Arena OTOH showed how much good a rigid class system can do an open world game - it's the reason I still play it from time to time. Very, very few first person, single character RPG's dare to limit the player in such a way.

I think Morrowind's class system is fine. It gives your character more of an identity, even if you can train whatever skills you like.

It also makes it feel more like a "real" RPG to me. Just like character stats, character skills, race selection, traits, perks, etc.

Nothing wrong with having to make choices at the start of an RPG. Again, no need to try to homogenize RPG mechanics and say they all need to be the same or fit some modern model made up by collective RPG designers. There is plenty of room for all sorts of RPG systems in the current age of gaming, including age-old systems that will never, in my opinion, go out of style.

I believe rolling randomly is one of those things you could waste hours on in older RPGs and make an unbalanced character accordingly.

That said, some of the more interesting PNP sessions I've played have forced random rolls and then attempting to assign those roles to the appropriate attribute (and sometimes creating role-playing opportunities). But yes, in a computer game, I think it's archaic, and I do prefer point-build systems whenever possible.

Class systems can exist in RPGs, sure. A lot of RPGs have them. I think they often be a detriment to role-playing rather than a help (you get quantified in a "box" - oh, you're the thief, vs. hey, you're the Gray Mouser, which is far more interesting).

@Chris Avellone

Welcome to rpgwatch Chris and thanks for clarifying for the community here.

Welcome to the Watch MCA. Thanks for insight.

I've got a thousand questions I'd love to ask you, about all kinds of things.

But my number one question would be…

How are you doing? Are you happy?



P.S. I prefer point buy systems. Helps me to feel like I'm creating my own character because I get to decide its strengths and weaknesses with my choices. It also allows me to create hybrid type characters right off the bat. Archer/thief is a favorite of mine.

Originally Posted by Chris Avellone
I believe rolling randomly is one of those things you could waste hours on in older RPGs and make an unbalanced character accordingly.

That said, some of the more interesting PNP sessions I've played have forced random rolls and then attempting to assign those roles to the appropriate attribute (and sometimes creating role-playing opportunities). But yes, in a computer game, I think it's archaic, and I do prefer point-build systems whenever possible.

Class systems can exist in RPGs, sure. A lot of RPGs have them. I think they often be a detriment to role-playing rather than a help (you get quantified in a "box" - oh, you're the thief, vs. hey, you're the Gray Mouser, which is far more interesting).

Hi Chris (assuming you're not some Codexer's alt )! Isn't it easier for a writer to work with class archetypes, or do you find it too limiting?

First a few thoughts of my own.
Luck as the major factor has to exist outside machines as no_electronics games have no way outside of dice rolls to generate random numbers easily.
While many videogames recognized that player's skill should matter more than luck and toned down random factor, we're lately bombarded with roguelike titles where skill doesn't matter but your daily horoscope does.
By skill I don't mean good reflexes to react on every single QTE or ability to shoot down everything on PC where games are without autoaim. But player's talent to use and abuse everything at their disposal in a game to overcome some obstacle. More challenging, more satisfactory it feels when a player knows the win wasn't a result of perfectly aligned stars at some moment.

But ppl OMG it's Chris!
Sorry people but I have to pose as a resident derailer.

Chris welcome and thanks for everything you did so far and etc. That set…
Man, we all and I mean all want to know what are you currently working on! Give us some hints at least. Just don't say you're currently cooking your meal, you know what we're interested in.

Originally Posted by Chris Avellone
I believe rolling randomly is one of those things you could waste hours on in older RPGs and make an unbalanced character accordingly.

In fact, I am doing just that right now.

I'm enjoying my first playthrough of Wizardry 8 so much that I thought I'd have another try at taking a party all the way through the full 6-8 trilogy.

I downloaded the old game and set about rolling up a party -- only to find you get not only random stats, but also a random number of bonus points to allocate, and if you don't luck into enough bonus points, you won't be able to create the hybrid classes with multiple stat requirements.

I'm trying to create a Faerie Ninja (since they and only they can use the final game's best weapon). I've been trying to create a Faerie Ninja for freaking weeks.

The first time I tried, I sat there for over an hour rolling and re-rolling before giving up in frustration. To save stress, I now just fire up Wiz 6 for a few minutes every night after logging out of Wiz 8. No end to this process in is sight, and it's not a lot of fun.

So yeah, I say bring on the modern streamlined character creation systems. I don't want something dumbed down -- but I do want something where control is in my hands, not at the mercy of an RNG.

@Chris Avellone

I think an RNG system can definitely be still valid is in no way archaic to me. It's simply a different philosophy entirely.

Games like Elminage Gothic rely heavily on the RNG in nearly every aspect of the game, from how many stat points you have to spend in a point-buy system, to how much damage you receive in combat. A simple attack from a strong enemy in the game can do a range of 3-30, and that's just an early example. RNG rules that game.

Can you roll endlessly at the beginning trying to make an advanced class? Sure. But, the point of the advanced classes in that game isn't to necessarily roll one at the beginning, but to later freely switch to them when you have the appropriate statistics. It works very well, and in that way can be viewed as the RNG system improved a bit to make it more encompassing.

I don't see why a modern game can't implement RNG in a way that is not quite as limiting as the older games yet still retains the benefits and feeling of an RNG system.

About creating an unbalanced character. To me, balance is not the end-all-be-all of character creation. Complete and utter balance can be boring as well. I view RNG as a more of, "Roll decent enough stats you are happy with them, some may be good, others great, others you have to work with", it's a cohesive mixture, not that your character is terrible or even perfect in all statistical areas.

Instead of throwing out the idea, flip it into something new.

As for classes, rolling the Gray Mouser is fine for some, but for others, a character like that might lack the simple identity that a class provides. You also run the risk of completely making a mis-mash of whatever ideas you had for the character, or creating a character that is good at everything or doesn't have a strong identity.

Also, rolling the Gray Mouser isn't exactly mutually exclusive with class systems.

Class identity isn't simply the thought that "oh, i'm the thief", it also works together cohesively and actively with all the other character attributes in the game. What is the race of the thief? The background? The deity he or she worships? Their alignment? Their statistical allocation? Etc. It all works together in games to create a much bigger picture than simply the class feature would by itself.

That's not even mentioning games where class is a major selection as to exactly what type of active gameplay content you would expect. There are plenty of roguelikes now where the gameplay varies wildly from class to class, and you are expected to experience various classes throughout your repeated playthroughs of the game.

So it's just not quite simple to me as, "Oh, that idea is archaic." History always repeats itself and old ideas always resurface later on.