Realms of Arkania: Star Trail

The Realms of Arkania remake is 2nd on my list of "hardcore CRPGs" using the The Dark Eye system. I don't know if hardcore is the right word, but I mean in terms of having many old-school RPG elements, pen and paper feel, etc. First on the list of course is Drakensang (and I guess you would put the 2nd Drakensang game as #2), but RoA definitely has a true implementation of the rules and is a CRPG all the way.

I haven't played other games that used the rules but I don't think either Blackguards or Demonicon would come close to the level of "RPGness" that the RoA remake has (just by going off what I've seen from them both). Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just talking about traditional "RPG stuff".

If you like dice-rolls, lots of stats, advanced character building, party management and planning in advance, surviving a difficult dungeon dive with said planning skills, skill checks galore, random events often with choices of how to handle them, traveling management with food, water, supplies, etc., turn-based combat, etc. etc., you really should check out the RoA remake (or the originals, obviously).

Originally Posted by Kordanor
Yep, I did. Only the first part though. And I cannot disagree more.

You can disagree all you want. That won't make it something it isn't.

I get what you're trying to say, and yes, some maps have to be done using certain strategies, but that doesn't make it a puzzle game.

Originally Posted by forgottenlor
Also the game features none of the non combat skills of a gaming system with lots of non-combat options, and thus can only be compared marginally to Drakensang or Arkania-

Why would someone compare it to Drakensang or Arkania? It's not the same genre.

Originally Posted by JDR13
You can disagree all you want. That won't make it something it isn't.

I get what you're trying to say, and yes, some maps have to be done using certain strategies, but that doesn't make it a puzzle game.




Why would someone compare it to Drakensang or Arkania? It's not the same genre.

You *could* compare them in terms of the overall depth of the ruleset implementation in their respective game styles (which I kind of did with my above post). I don't know what the overall RPG elements look like in Blackguards OR Demonicon, but the bits I've seen of both don't seem to compare to the breadth of overall RPG "stuff" in Drakensang or RoA (which are certainly "pen and paper" heavy).

Also, interesting that Blackguards would get called a puzzle game. Kordanor, did you play Telepath Tactics? If so, what did you think of that one in comparison to Blackguards?

Originally Posted by Fluent
Also, interesting that Blackguards would get called a puzzle game. Kordanor, did you play Telepath Tactics? If so, what did you think of that one in comparison to Blackguards?

I am afraid I did not.

But what I mean by that is that it's basically a tactics game where most of the important variables are fixed.
So for example:

In Xcom or Jagged Alliance you have a very dynamic group composition - In blackguards it's basically fixed with some minor skill adjustments for your companions (and major ones for your main character).

In XCom you have dynamic maps, in JA opponents and direction you come from can change - In BG maps are 100% fixed.

In XCom/JA you have big maps and lots of navigation options - In BG maps are tiny. The path you need to take is obvious.

The list goes on and on.

Mabye it can be compared with Panzer Corps which I did not play as well, but heard a lot about. In lower difficulties you have several options there. But if you want to finish it on higher difficulties and with "Gold" Rewards you have to "solve" the maps as they are intended to. Strategy and Tactics you can think of basically evaporate and are replaced by a puzzle. A puzzle to find the actions every turn which the developers intended for being able to finish the scenario in that difficulty with that reward.

Originally Posted by Fluent
You *could* compare them in terms of the overall depth of the ruleset implementation in their respective game styles (which I kind of did with my above post). I don't know what the overall RPG elements look like in Blackguards OR Demonicon, but the bits I've seen of both don't seem to compare to the breadth of overall RPG "stuff" in Drakensang or RoA (which are certainly "pen and paper" heavy).

Sure, but why would you? One is a simple action-RPG, and the other is a strategy game. I wouldn't expect either of them to be close to Drakensang or RoA in terms of traditional RPG elements.

Originally Posted by JDR13
You can disagree all you want. That won't make it something it isn't.

I get what you're trying to say, and yes, some maps have to be done using certain strategies, but that doesn't make it a puzzle game.




Why would someone compare it to Drakensang or Arkania? It's not the same genre.

You are right, one shouldn't. I guess I do because Blackguards was sold as an rpg, but it lacks most of the rpg systems which are available in Drakensang and Arcania, but then again so does Demonicon. Demonicon I felt was less dissapointing, because I expected it to be an ARPG, whereas I was surprised by Blackguards, because it was designed by a company specializing in adventure games. They took their puzzle know how and applied it to the battles, but didn't really take their story know how to create an interesting quest system (in my opinion). I found that dissapointing, both because I don't like puzzle battles and because I really like clever quests, and even though the sequel has been on sale for 5 euros multiple times, I haven't bothered picking it up.

Well, all I can say is I'm a huge fan of the classic RoA trilogy (BoD was my first proper CRPG in 1993) and the Drakensangs but Blackguards did absolutely nothing for me.

I only played the demo but I immediately disliked the way that the maps are set up. It kind of reminded me of the old Panzer General games which had a turn limit and required lots of trial&error before you found the "right" way to win a map with acceptable losses within the turn limit. That's simply not my cup of tea at all.

Or more generally, nowadays, games where you finish map after map are not my cup of tea at all. I always prefer a more or less contiguous "open" world over playing through a series of maps (though strictly speaking a game like Gothic with its chapters is just like playing through a series of big maps as well but the size of the maps does a good job of hiding the structure).

Originally Posted by forgottenlor
You are right, one shouldn't. I guess I do because Blackguards was sold as an rpg, but it lacks most of the rpg systems which are available in Drakensang and Arcania, but then again so does Demonicon. Demonicon I felt was less dissapointing, because I expected it to be an ARPG, whereas I was surprised by Blackguards, because it was designed by a company specializing in adventure games. They took their puzzle know how and applied it to the battles, but didn't really take their story know how to create an interesting quest system (in my opinion). I found that dissapointing, both because I don't like puzzle battles and because I really like clever quests, and even though the sequel has been on sale for 5 euros multiple times, I haven't bothered picking it up.

True, Blackguards is about 90% strategy and 10% RPG, so I can understand how some people were disappointed after the way it was marketed. I still enjoyed it quite a bit though, and I think it's a great game for fans of hardcore turn-based combat. I heard that the last patch made some of the more frustrating battles a little more forgiving.

Originally Posted by Moriendor
Well, all I can say is I'm a huge fan of the classic RoA trilogy (BoD was my first proper CRPG in 1993) and the Drakensangs but Blackguards did absolutely nothing for me.

What did you think of the BoD remake?

Nothing - yet . I bought it on sale some time last year but it's just been added to the ever growing pile of shame. I'm also kind of hoping that maybe they will patch it again once Startrail has been released so I'm fine waiting and hoping for more improvements. I'll give it a shot one of these days (in 2024 or so ).

Originally Posted by JDR13
Sure, but why would you? One is a simple action-RPG, and the other is a strategy game. I wouldn't expect either of them to be close to Drakensang or RoA in terms of traditional RPG elements.

True. I sort of mean like, "relatively speaking". Relatively speaking do Blackguards and Demonicon have RPG depth in their systems or are they more simplistic?

A strategy RPG like Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together has a lot RPG stuff, like a bunch of loot and armor/weapon slots, character class customization, branching paths, different recruitable NPCs, choices of which maps and routes to take, multiple endings and various choices to make, etc. Just curious if Blackguards has anything like this?

Both Blackguards and Demonicon seem to be marketed as RPGs, but I don't think I would play Demonicon but perhaps might try Blackguards sometime.

Originally Posted by Kordanor
I am afraid I did not.

But what I mean by that is that it's basically a tactics game where most of the important variables are fixed.
So for example:

In Xcom or Jagged Alliance you have a very dynamic group composition - In blackguards it's basically fixed with some minor skill adjustments for your companions (and major ones for your main character).

In XCom you have dynamic maps, in JA opponents and direction you come from can change - In BG maps are 100% fixed.

In XCom/JA you have big maps and lots of navigation options - In BG maps are tiny. The path you need to take is obvious.

The list goes on and on.

Mabye it can be compared with Panzer Corps which I did not play as well, but heard a lot about. In lower difficulties you have several options there. But if you want to finish it on higher difficulties and with "Gold" Rewards you have to "solve" the maps as they are intended to. Strategy and Tactics you can think of basically evaporate and are replaced by a puzzle. A puzzle to find the actions every turn which the developers intended for being able to finish the scenario in that difficulty with that reward.

Well, I'd be interested to see what you think of Telepath Tactics. In some ways this game is similar. The maps are sort of a "puzzle" in ways you have to crack.

For example, you have to rescue an NPC before reinforcements reach you. So, if you don't rush there in almost 95% efficient fashion, the reinforcements get you, outnumber you and you have no chance to win.

I think Telepath Tactics has a bunch of potential, though. But it had the bare minimum of RPG elements and ultimately that bored me about it. It was just linear, map to map combat, cutscene, to the next battle. I liked how you could recruit many unique NPCs and there was even permadeath, but with barely any loot or equipment slots and I don't recall much character building, it was too bare bones for me in the long run.

A little bit off topic now, but anyways. I am not quite sure why I didn't try telepath tatics. It was something in reviews which kept me away. Might be that luck played a big role or something different.

But what you described somewhat also sounds like Tahira. No loot, battle after battle, 100% linear missions, not a lot of story and no real decisions. This was a very cool game anyways as you had lots of freedom and options within the tactical maps, so that for most maps there wasn't a clear way you "had to do it". A game I'd strongly recommend for Tactic-fans (not to people expecting a RPG).

Originally Posted by Kordanor
A little bit off topic now, but anyways. I am not quite sure why I didn't try telepath tatics. It was something in reviews which kept me away. Might be that luck played a big role or something different.

But what you described somewhat also sounds like Tahira. No loot, battle after battle, 100% linear missions, not a lot of story and no real decisions. This was a very cool game anyways as you had lots of freedom and options within the tactical maps, so that for most maps there wasn't a clear way you "had to do it". A game I'd strongly recommend for Tactic-fans (not to people expecting a RPG).

I like Tactics but I really like when the game has the RPG elements to offer as well. Telepath Tactics would be great if they took that combat system, etc., and added more RPG elements overall. I know the guy who made TT also has Telepath RPG and other games but I haven't tried them yet.

I don't know if luck is important in TT as the entire damage system is deterministic, i.e. no dice rolls and every attack does the same amount of damage each time you use it (of course it probably does vary based on the armor and resistances and enemy has, but if you hit them with the attack 3 times in a row, it will do the same damage all 3 times).

Sorry for going off-topic yet again. Back to RoA. I'll suggest again you all checking it out if you have interest in the TDE system, like D&D and pen and paper style RPGs or just want an RPG that's totally different and unique to play. There really are no other types of RPG like this out there.