Western fantasy games no longer fantastic?

Originally Posted by lackblogger
There's no real problem with the traditional Tolkienesque/Forgotten Realms fantasy world, there's just a problem of creative talent.

I agree to the most part but I think setting can also affect creativity in a negative way since you are bound by some of the conventions of the setting, specially if the setting is well know. Sometime you have to break free from a setting to let your creative juices flow! So the real issue in game industry is not lack of creativity but lack of risk takers. One can argue its both lack of risk taking and lack of creativity! We need people to come up with new setting but not all of these new settings are going to click with audiences so they will fail.

I think we can do with lot more games set in "pulp fantasy" setting. It’s fairly well know in terms books but I don’t believe we have many games set in it. I think pulp is sufficiently different from “medieval” type fantasy but yet still feel familiar to western audiences so lot less risky than say “eastern” fantasy.

The things I like about pulp fantasy is that they are not “epics” where you are required to save the world. You are not the center of the world. Conan was always doing stuff for his own selfish benefits etc. I never felt that even if Conan failed to slay the big bad sorcerer, the world will still go on and no one really cared! The world was so much bigger than Conan. Also anything could happen in the world and still be self consistent. This will allow other writes to come up with all sort of strange and mysterious monsters, situations, architecture etc.

As someone mentioned before I wish western developers do games in “eastern” fantasy setting. I define “eastern” to not just mean orient but also south Asian as well, specially Indian mythologies as well. There is lot of new ideas for monsters, architecture, lore, philosophies etc to be had there. Why western developer? Well I don’t like some game play mechanics Korean and Japanese developers come up with! Having said that, I am not sure if this is possible with current political correctness culture where people get accused of cultural appropriation etc for nothing!

I think Western developers shy away from it because the perception is that the mainstream doesn't buy stuff they aren't familiar with and they aren't that wrong, you need a lots of advertising to make them buy unfamiliar stuff.

Just look at Jade Empire. It was BioWare game that followed the acclaimed KoTOR and it released a few years after wuxia film made it big worldwide (Hidden Dragon, Crouched Tiger, Hero and slightly less House of Flying Daggers). Yet it flopped commercially with very poor initial sales on the xbox.

Jade Empire is also the only Western made wuxia video game. I want more Jade Empire *sniff*.

Yes, another game which offered a new and interesting setting but provided it within a system of consolised action gameplay of no particular creativity, yes, just like KOTOR but without a rabid existing fanbase. A bit like Dragon Age games but without the rabid relationships fanbase.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've preached this very same problem many times. Wouldn't it be great to have an RPG set in Voodoo mythology, or, as Lostforever states, how about some Hindu mythology. It's really not as big a stretch as people like to make out, you're still doing all the usual things you'd be doing in any other RPG, such as quests, levelling up, spellcasting, defeating monsters etc etc, just within a backdrop that excites you because you're new to the framework.

The main problem is a lot of this generation of RPGers will have been brought up on WoW's interpretation of RPG, the whole concept of healers, glass canons and tanks, as if no other method of adventuring is available. Where quests are either vapid sideshows or cataclysmic battles with hordes and a big boss. All elements of the genre that are nothing wrong in themselves, but become parodies of themselves when watered down and overused in the blaze fashion that MMOs practically dictate.

A generation that uses phrases like "is there a storymode so I don't have to bother with combat" and "it's too combat focused" because they have no experience with games that have the creativity to make the combat so interesting that it justifies the game regardless of other content. Even an RPG set in Greek mythology would, ironically, seem fresh, with Gods, Medusas, Cyclopses et al to defeat, where even the chosen ones are mere toys of the Gods.

But making any of them just another console action RPG but with different backdrops, meh, who gives a crap, they'll still play the same as any other game and the setting wont make for enough of a difference to warrent any sense of originality. Having a Voodoo spell of summon zombie that works on cooldown as you excitedly watch a fireworks display of meaningless screen mess is no different to summon bear in a western action RPG.

The new settings only have relevance to interest if they actually involve new and interesting mechanics that have to be learned as if you were playing a new game, because it's the new that's relevant, not the setting per-se. The setting just provides the opportunity to introduce the new to people who have actively chosen to buy something new.

Originally Posted by lackblogger
The new settings only have relevance to interest if they actually involve new and interesting mechanics that have to be learned as if you were playing a new game, because it's the new that's relevant, not the setting per-se. The setting just provides the opportunity to introduce the new to people who have actively chosen to buy something new.

Each setting has a unique aspect that the designer should hone in on to capture the feeling of that world. In the Witcher one of those aspects was magic signs like Quen but alchemy was just as important to prepare before battle especially in the first Witcher. For Planescape Torment magic tattoos tied into the setting and got us interested in the lore as well as providing tangible benefits in combat.

New features should always be introduced in a way that is seamless and part of the world. So many settings are just copy pastes of other similar entries. For instance there is a thing about Ubisoft games where each game borrows elements as if to a template. RPGs are little better as most action rpgs seem to imitate the most popular combat style at the time and make sure to tick the boxes of each expected feature. Too much designing by numbers and playing safe. Its fine if the gameplay is part of an existing series to keep conversant with its predecessors gameplay but even then you expect some iteration and revision of elements.

Well I think we can all agree that more variety in settings is sorely needed. We've got a Lovecraft'ish and a BattleTech tech game showing up this year - oh, and Mass Effect - so I guess we'll be getting some. (Kingdom Come: Deliverance and War Band aren't really fantasy, either.)

I've got to quibble about that "25% of BG's spell variety" though - *many* of the spells in that game had no business being there at all. Bioware seemed to think that they had to include every AD&D spell in the book!

Originally Posted by crpgnut
This shot is from Skyrim, in case you didn't know….It looks like Vilja, a Lydia mod, and Blackreach dungeon right next to a falmer nest. P.S. It is the TERA armor though.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspeci…on/mods/5227/?

The main character is holding Sanguine's Rose too.

Vilja it is! Not a Lydia mod, though - I think that's just Illia. Getting all that from one screenshot, though? You've played a LOT of Skyrim, Nut!

Originally Posted by Zloth
I've got to quibble about that "25% of BG's spell variety" though - *many* of the spells in that game had no business being there at all.

I disagree. I think that having that many spells gives the user more choices. It also adds replay value (ooh, let's try this spell instead and this one, etc.).

Originally Posted by Fluent
I disagree. I think that having that many spells gives the user more choices. It also adds replay value (ooh, let's try this spell instead and this one, etc.).

Until you learn that there is no reason to memorize the spell because nobody is affected by sleep except for the level 1 kobolds that aren't even worth the effort to pause the game for. I think my point is that they have to be well balanced for variety to make sense otherwise I'm going to revert back to memorizing various forms of breach, fireball and cloudkill because they actually work.

DnD spells were terribly balanced and some of that may be engine as well which mutes some of the original intent because you can only do so much in a video game that a DM is not constrained by.

Originally Posted by figment
Until you learn that there is no reason to memorize the spell because nobody is affected by sleep except for the level 1 kobolds that aren't even worth the effort to pause the game for. I think my point is that they have to be well balanced for variety to make sense otherwise I'm going to revert back to memorizing various forms of breach, fireball and cloudkill because they actually work.

DnD spells were terribly balanced and some of that may be engine as well which mutes some of the original intent because you can only do so much in a video game that a DM is not constrained by.

In other words, you had to learn from long experience which spells were optimum and in combination with which party, compounded by both your foreknowledge of the game and in depth knowledge of D&D. Whereas with Dragon Age it's just press a button at level up and you get more powerful 'skills', to which a fighter can have more 'control spells' than a mage. No game knowledge or foreknowledge needed. The quote used the word variety and not quantity for a reason.

Originally Posted by figment
Until you learn that there is no reason to memorize the spell because nobody is affected by sleep except for the level 1 kobolds that aren't even worth the effort to pause the game for.

I don't know D&D spells all that well so correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleep actually seems pretty effective…?

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Sleep

I think my point is that they have to be well balanced for variety to make sense otherwise I'm going to revert back to memorizing various forms of breach, fireball and cloudkill because they actually work.

On my playthroughs of both Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale I didn't use any of those spells you just mentioned.

I understand the general thing you're getting at, and I agree that spells have to be balanced in general in RPGs, but in a few different playthroughs of those games I chose unique spells at every turn and it worked pretty well. I think BG + IWD are both games where you can just choose things you like and make it work. Heck, I use Jan extensively in BG2 and everyone says how he is the worst character ever. Maybe on harder difficulties it is more important. I did only play on Core Rules, but future playthroughs I will up the difficulty level.

Even if the spells/RPG mechanics in a game aren't balanced to a T I would still prefer having many choices that can possibly lead to different experiences, synergies and choices than only a few. It's satisfying to me to use a weird/obscure option and discover some sort of benefit or not so run of the mill use for it. And systems with tons of options and stats, etc., appeal to me a great deal (Morrowind, Arcanum, BG, IWD, etc.).

Originally Posted by lackblogger
Now, don't get me wrong, I've preached this very same problem many times. Wouldn't it be great to have an RPG set in Voodoo mythology, or, as Lostforever states, how about some Hindu mythology. It's really not as big a stretch as people like to make out, you're still doing all the usual things you'd be doing in any other RPG, such as quests, levelling up, spellcasting, defeating monsters etc etc, just within a backdrop that excites you because you're new to the framework.

I think you would love the Shin Megami Tensei games. The include deities from the Shinto, Hindu and Christian Religions. Most of them are set in the future however the recent one is set in an alternate timeline in the past.

Originally Posted by Fluent
I don't know D&D spells all that well so correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleep actually seems pretty effective…?

Ok I should have picked something like "Know Alignment" instead. Anyway, BG2 is in my top 3 of all time games so I do love it and I power game it on hard difficulties. I do think the spells were not well balanced for video game play though which is a common problem when adapting pen and paper games. And yes I do still prefer it to the Awesome Button style of play. I just wish they thought it through more. Dragon Age had grease igniting if hit with fire as I recall which is a good implementation.

Originally Posted by Damian
I think you would love the Shin Megami Tensei games. The include deities from the Shinto, Hindu and Christian Religions. Most of them are set in the future however the recent one is set in an alternate timeline in the past.

I agree that the diversity was nice in some respect but if I have an issue was that there were so many that it ended up being rather bland and backstory of each one is basically unnecessary. Kind of like Suikoden NPCs; can you really remember differences in all 108 stars and use them appropriate?

Originally Posted by figment
Kind of like Suikoden NPCs; can you really remember differences in all 108 stars and use them appropriate?

Absolutely YES I can. I can still recall tons of NPCs from each Suikoden game, including characters who had no more than a sentence or two of dialogue. You know why that is? Suikoden creates personality, character backstory, etc., in ways other than dialogue. The clothes the NPC is wearing, the way they talk, their little quirks, their animations, their combat skills, their combat animations!, etc., tell a huge story without having much dialogue at all. That is a genius aspect of Suikoden and something I'd like to talk about in more depth sometime in the future. Maybe in a video or something.

We can agree to disagree that those spells weren't well-balanced. As I said, even if they weren't (to some extent I prefer unbalance, because in the end it still gives you more options, more unique quirks, etc.) they still offer more options. I don't like when a game has 5 classes/skills/spells/etc. and are very detailed. I'd rather have 20 options that are all over the place. That's just more fun to me. Even if Spell B is 5% weaker than Spell D if you power game and run the analytics on it.

And that goes for recruiting party members as well. I want 25 characters to recruit, not 6 or 7. Each one doesn't need a novel worth of dialogue, it can be done in a clever way that I just described how Suikoden does it. You can also use your imagination to supplement this style.

Originally Posted by figment
I agree that the diversity was nice in some respect but if I have an issue was that there were so many that it ended up being rather bland and backstory of each one is basically unnecessary. Kind of like Suikoden NPCs; can you really remember differences in all 108 stars and use them appropriate?

This is true. I was referring to him liking it because of the setting.