Pillars of Eternity II - First Stretch Goal

Pillars of Eternity II has its first stretch goal. Each class will get 2 sub-classes per class.

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We. Are. Funded! Thanks to the support of all of our backers, investors, and our wonderful community, Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire has achieved and then exceeded its funding goal in less than 24 hours, exceeding all of our expectations. Our fans are the best in the world, and it's thanks to you that we're able to make games we love. Thank you so much, sincerely.

To learn more about Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire go to: https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire

To learn more about Pillars of Eternity: https://eternity.obsidian.net

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Hail and well met, elves. It's your buddy, Josh, with some info on subclasses and importing your character from PoE1.

Subclasses are similar to kits in 2nd Edition AD&D (featured in Baldur's Gate 2). Our focus has been to give a different flavor to a class through specialization. We want each subclass to do something cool and distinctive that also has a built-in trade-off compared to the base class and other subclasses. For example, if you remember Zahua from The White March, you may recall that he was a drug-addled/enlightened monk of the Nalpazca. If subclasses are funded,you may select the Nalpazca as one of two Philosophies (monk subclasses). The Nalpazca gain greater benefits from using drugs, but their Wound threshold is increased while under the influence.

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More information.

I hope they're putting some serous thought into more stretch goal = they're clearly going to meet a few. I heard something about 'improved pathing' in PoE2…but I'd love the pathing system (in combat) to be given a major overhaul - this was one of my biggest issues with PoE1. I also suspect that reducing party size may have been an attempt to ease this…but I'm just a cynic. It's not a trivial task, but others have solved it. And if they have a pot of money to throw at it, then it can be done…I wonder how much of the old engine code they're using? I don't think you can do simple pathing-on-a-grid, like basic A*, something better is needed.

Can someone explain what people mean when they talk about "pathfinidng" in these games? People always mention it about Infinity Engine games and now Pillars and I have no idea what they are talking about.

And congrats to Obsidian on Pillars 2 being funded + reaching the first stretch goal! Hopefully many more to come.

How your character actually moves when giving him an order to move to a certain spot -- the path he takes to get there.

Taking the scenic route, getting stuck on an object or unnecessarily walking by an enemy only to be engaged could all be considered examples of poor pathfinding.

There is a confusion between pathfinding and second guessing.Determining what route a PC must follow falls on players.

It is acuter in a product like PoE that implemented rules of engagement.
Players expect the route to be determined by others than themselves. When clicking an order command, they expect the PC to run past all the engagement possible, except their target.
In other words, players ignore the feature rules of engagement and wish it played as if there was no rule.

Players who determine the route, that is adding way points when they must in order to go round any enemy that is not meant to be engaged, see no major issue with pathfinding. The PC is from start to end of path as the players wants.

So is Chien actually correct in that players are complaining because they get stuck in Engagements when they move? If so I have to agree that that is part of the game that should remain and make you set waypoints or pay closer attention to movement.

I never had any problems with path-finding in any sense, either with Pillars or IWD/BG. It's just weird to see what a common complaint it is.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Can someone explain what people mean when they talk about "pathfinidng" in these games? People always mention it about Infinity Engine games and now Pillars and I have no idea what they are talking about.

And congrats to Obsidian on Pillars 2 being funded + reaching the first stretch goal! Hopefully many more to come.

Pathfinding - for me anyway - is when I click to instruct a unit to move from A to B, they should follow the most direct route there…without being "dumb" i.e. walking through a trap they know about, going in the *opposite* direction through a cave of bugbears because…well..one of there companions was too slow in moving out of the way. That sort of thing. In PoE, the pathing outside of combat was fine. In combat however, I would *often* give a character a simple move instruction - the route looked obvious and direct, no obstacles, or attacks of opportunity etc - and they would doing something unexpected. Usually getting numerous AoE in the process. Happened to enemies too - in which case I would keep in hitting them as they ping-ponged around me, trying to reach on the other party members. If you never experienced this, you were very lucky, or you super-micro-manage character movement. In a Turn-based system this is not an issue - in RTwP - when , in opinion at least, I should be able to issue an instruction and then move my attention elsewhere, naive pathing is a huge irritant. Sure, I don't expect sophisticated 'intelligence" in the pathing module, but a lot of the issue seem to arise because they are using naive baldursgate-esque pathing. If you allow friendly characters to squeeze through your space (as allowed by DnD rules I should point out) then you can avoid many issues. That means you can't use naive A* pathindfinding, which is what many isometric games use - movement in discrete steps only, along the 8 cardinal directions. Also, the enemy AI pathing is naive in POE, in the sense that it would get 'stuck'e.g. that ping-ponging I mentioned - that would not happen if better pathing was used.

Originally Posted by Fluent
So is Chien actually correct in that players are complaining because they get stuck in Engagements when they move? If so I have to agree that that is part of the game that should remain and make you set waypoints or pay closer attention to movement.

I never had any problems with path-finding in any sense, either with Pillars or IWD/BG. It's just weird to see what a common complaint it is.

No…please read my explanation. I know about engagement. Even if its not an issue for you, it is an issue for me and many others. I will continue to hope that they make some improvements.

I read it. I guess I was micro-managing movement because I don't remember having many problems with it. I remember a few times where a character did something weird, but it wasn't a game-breaking issue or anything. I do agree that characters shouldn't go through traps they already know are there, etc., and if the path is obvious and unblocked then it should be a simple move. If that needs to be improved then it should be.

I mean, even in BG/IWD I would tell a character to go somewhere, usually a mage or ranged character to back up, etc., and it always worked well. I always figured they meant path-finding was bad because players would try to move a party across the map in one click or something, thus leading to weirdness. I just never really noticed a problem with it in any RTwP game.

Originally Posted by booboo
I hope they're putting some serous thought into more stretch goal = they're clearly going to meet a few. I heard something about 'improved pathing' in PoE2…but I'd love the pathing system (in combat) to be given a major overhaul - this was one of my biggest issues with PoE1. I also suspect that reducing party size may have been an attempt to ease this…but I'm just a cynic. It's not a trivial task, but others have solved it. And if they have a pot of money to throw at it, then it can be done…I wonder how much of the old engine code they're using? I don't think you can do simple pathing-on-a-grid, like basic A*, something better is needed.

They moved to Unity 5 and it allow them to do stuff they couldn't in Unity 4, like querying animation frames for better combat feedback. Feargus also said they rewrote the entire cape system, I don't think that was a priority over pathing, AI or loading times. The last one being revamped with a streaming system for interiors. AI and pathing was said to be revamped but not how exactly yet.

Originally Posted by booboo
Pathfinding - for me anyway - is when I click to instruct a unit to move from A to B, they should follow the most direct route there…without being "dumb"

except that dumb is player defined.

i.e. walking through a trap they know about,

Traps are laid out to cover in one direction and force an engagement from another.
In PoE, players are given the benefit of initiating the engagement most of the times. It means players decide from what direction they engage.
Scouting is an essential stage before deciding how to engage. Players are then aware of the traps.
Basically, PCs that could dance through traps on their own is equivalent to a situation no traps are laid.
The strategic importance of traps is cancelled.
Getting players to think of their movement through the trapped zone is essential. This is a usual feature. For example, when a side is covered by a land mine, options are: destroying the mine field, then progress at full speed; progress at full speed and endure the casualties, progress at a reduced speed. This oganization is used in turn based porducts as real time products.

going in the *opposite* direction through a cave of bugbears because…well..one of there companions was too slow in moving out of the way. That sort of thing. In PoE, the pathing outside of combat was fine. In combat however, I would *often* give a character a simple move instruction - the route looked obvious and direct, no obstacles, or attacks of opportunity etc - and they would doing something unexpected. Usually getting numerous AoE in the process.

Looks like the consequence of poor engagements that might have been compensated by spamming pause.

Happened to enemies too - in which case I would keep in hitting them as they ping-ponged around me, trying to reach on the other party members.

As it must.
One goal of an engagement is organize favourably the battlefiled, placing the enemy in a position of receiving maximum damage while inflicting minimal damage.
Enemies who cant reach their target are an objective.
This kind of organization of the battlefied is core to RTwP play. It is not possible to play RTwP without working to organize the battlefield.

Originally Posted by Fluent
So is Chien actually correct in that players are complaining because they get stuck in Engagements when they move? If so I have to agree that that is part of the game that should remain and make you set waypoints or pay closer attention to movement.

I never had any problems with path-finding in any sense, either with Pillars or IWD/BG. It's just weird to see what a common complaint it is.

No he's not, at least not in my case.

I always micromanage my characters in combat so I rarely ever had an issue then.

It's as you said in a different post. Selecting all my characters to go to an inn in town and 4 show up and then I need to search the map for the other 2 who are stuck on barrels or something. Or being in a cave with narrow passageways and moving your characters and 3 go where you want the other 3 bump in to each other head off in different directions and Argo other monsters. I've let them go on some occasions and they've actually circle a dungeon drawing agro from just about every enemy in the place.

I shouldn't have to and don't want to micromanage each character and set waypoints every time I want to go from point a to point b. In combat I understand it and actually enjoy the micromanagement but not when just traversing the land.

You're lucky if you've never experienced this in any IE games or other RTWP games. That's as unbelievable as getting through 3 1/2 chapters of diablo 3 without using a healing potion.

Pathfinding was atrociously bad in PoE#1, not just due to Engagement, but simply getting your party to keep fighting in one distinct location was a pain in the ass (and not have a couple members scurry off in the opposite direction of battle when an enemy dies and repositioning is attempted).

RTwP doesn't have to mean RTwP w/ fulltime babysitting.

Originally Posted by sakichop
No he's not, at least not in my case.

I always micromanage my characters in combat so I rarely ever had an issue then.

It's as you said in a different post. Selecting all my characters to go to an inn in town and 4 show up and then I need to search the map for the other 2 who are stuck on barrels or something. Or being in a cave with narrow passageways and moving your characters and 3 go where you want the other 3 bump in to each other head off in different directions and Argo other monsters. I've let them go on some occasions and they've actually circle a dungeon drawing agro from just about every enemy in the place.

I shouldn't have to and don't want to micromanage each character and set waypoints every time I want to go from point a to point b. In combat I understand it and actually enjoy the micromanagement but not when just traversing the land.

You're lucky if you've never experienced this in any IE games or other RTWP games. That's as unbelievable as getting through 3 1/2 chapters of diablo 3 without using a healing potion.

Nah, not quite that unbelievable.

I don't actually click a long way away from the party in Infinity Engine games when travelling on the map. For some reason I just never did it. I usually stay close to the party, click in small "segments" and scroll to get where I want them to go. I do remember one time in the sewers in BG2 I clicked halfway across the map and one character ended up going a totally different route than the others. The reason I had clicked far away was because I died and wanted to hurry back to the encounter again. So other than that just haven't had much of an issue with it.

As for babysitting, I agree that your party should do basic things on their own, but I also prefer micromanaging RTwP to the extent that it's needed. I think if you get into advanced AI script area, etc., it starts feeling like a single-player game with AI companions rather than being the commander of your party. That's sort of what I recall DA:O feeling like when you used advanced scripts. However, the feature that lets you create your own scripts in that game was really neat to play with. I liked having Morrigan shapeshift into a bear at 75% health, etc.

I thought the pathfinding in Pillars was a definite improvement over IE pathfinding. Not perfect by any means, but still an improvement.

One of my favorite things to do in IWD, in Kuldahar, is to start my party in the lower right corner and then give a group command to go to Orrick's tower. Wait 20 to 30 seconds then pause and see where everyone ended up. MAYBE one or two of my group actually made it to Orrick's tower, the rest are bunched up near the inn, or working their way around Arundel's house or Gerth's shop.

Good times

^ That's hilarious. I'll have to try that.

First stretch goal funded…and nobody is surprised.

Two new ones added:
1.6m Level cap increase from 16 to 18 + Russian localization
1.8m a seventh companion, Xoti the priest/monk (that means there is currently 3 new companions and we have seen two of them: the Aumaua Ranger lady and the blue Orlan dual-pistols guy).

Originally Posted by Fluent
Nah, not quite that unbelievable.

I don't actually click a long way away from the party in Infinity Engine games when travelling on the map. For some reason I just never did it. I usually stay close to the party, click in small "segments" and scroll to get where I want them to go. I do remember one time in the sewers in BG2 I clicked halfway across the map and one character ended up going a totally different route than the others. The reason I had clicked far away was because I died and wanted to hurry back to the encounter again. So other than that just haven't had much of an issue with it.

As for babysitting, I agree that your party should do basic things on their own, but I also prefer micromanaging RTwP to the extent that it's needed. I think if you get into advanced AI script area, etc., it starts feeling like a single-player game with AI companions rather than being the commander of your party. That's sort of what I recall DA:O feeling like when you used advanced scripts. However, the feature that lets you create your own scripts in that game was really neat to play with. I liked having Morrigan shapeshift into a bear at 75% health, etc.

I agree in combat, I usually just use scripts for things like healing or keeping ranged characters ranged. I typically just turn off AI though.

When just traversing the world however I want them to at least not get stuck on stuff or run in to each other like keystone cops. Especially when on a second, third, forth…… play through when I already know where I want to go.

Posts strengthen once more the point made multiple times: PoE, Tyranny, and PoE2 are products without an audience.
Comments on micromanagement make no sense.
This is not fondamentally different from any ugoigo products: you take one character, you place inputs and it goes.
If anything, RTwP load in inputs is usually lighter than UgoIgo, since in UgoIgo, you can go through rolling menus etc to choose this or than while RTwP relies on shortcuts.

Complaints over pathfinding could be done the same way on UgoIgo. When moving from A to B, the route might not be satisfying so a point C is added, move from A to C, then from C to B.

The management of a party in UgoIgo is not fundamentally different from management in RTwP.

The best thing that could happrn for PoE2: they state it is UgoIgo. As a result, complaints over pathfinding, the management of a party will be gone.

Complaints are not about pathfinding, or the management of a party, players gladly accept heavier versions when they play ugoigo.

The complaints are about RTwP. Players do not like it. PoE, Tyranny had no audience. PoE2 will have no audience.

Originally Posted by Nephologist
I thought the pathfinding in Pillars was a definite improvement over IE pathfinding. Not perfect by any means, but still an improvement.

Those are non combat situations. If people are going to list products that do not manage pathfinding on the globality of a level, it is going to be a long list. Navigation over a large space requires the use of waypoints.
Tyranny may not be an improvement, the main difference is that levels are crossed once, twice, which means players are less likely to move their party with one long move order.

I never got into DnD that much and have a couple of embarrassing questions:

What's a "kit?"
What's the difference between "multi-class" and "sub-class" these seem to imply the same result "more than one class" but these have different meanings?