Pillars of Eternity II - Final Hours

Originally Posted by bjon045
I find it difficult to reconcile how two fan's of BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2 could have such different opinions of PoE. I loved everything about PoE (except ActIII of course - which is why it doesn't make my top20) and I thought White March 1&2 in particular were nothing short of amazing.

Was it the fact that it was Obsidian who made it? The fact that it wasn't D&D?

I don't want to go off-topic too much but I will answer this one.

No, I don't dislike this game because it was made by Obsidian. PoE just came across as a bland, mediocre game with nothing special. As simple as that. And no, it's got nothing to do with that setting isn't D&D. I just find Eora overally depressing place.

I can't comment on two expansions since vanilla put me off so much I decided not to purchase it. I was very excited about the announcement of PoE1 and wished like crazy it will be good, alas, it wasn't for me. I *tried* to like it, believe me I tried. I got to Twin Elms and decided this isn't for me and there is no point pushing forward when I am dreading playing this game more and more each second.

So there you go. PoE2 pitch looks interesting and I like what I've seen so far. But I am not going to fall for same trap again. Going to just simply sit back and wait for game's release and reviews. Probably will wait till the price is lowered so I don't end up regret spending $xx.

I kinda want to ask what was so wonderful about PoE for all of you to pitch in but not sure if I will agree with whatever the reason might be - I might be able to just nod and say "fair enough" but that will be about it.

Fair enough, blobby. I can agree the game was a bit depressing and dark at times. I would have liked maybe a higher fantasy type of feel, like an IWD/BG vibe in that regard.

But I like PoE because it's a lengthy, solid isometric RPG that at least tries to capture some BG/IWD magic. Does it entirely succeed? Not all the way, no, but it is at least a decent experience in a similar vein. It has a lot of depth, even if the ruleset isn't really my favorite, and it offers similar gameplay to BG/IWD.

I will definitely concede that D&D and the original IE games blow it out of the water in almost every way, but that's to be expected. I don't mean that as a knock against Obsidian. Everyone knows D&D has a many year head start.

But I also think Obsidian is missing a bit of an opportunity here. First opportunity is to make a "new D&D" ruleset. They should have used PoE as their "First Edition rules", and then made Tyranny a game in that world with the ruleset, and then used the same ruleset for PoE2. The games are too distant now and not tightly connected like BG1/BG2/IWD.

I also would have liked to have seen them do 2 games like BG1/BG2, or even a trilogy to take it one step further. They could have made the first game levels 1-10, the second game 11-20 and then the third game 21-30 with 30 being the cap (the level ranges would include expansion content as well, i.e. levels 8-10 expansion for the first game and so on.) That could have led to a "real" new Baldur's Gate, even one upped it a bit! But alas, it was not meant to be.

I think there is still a large opportunity for some ambitious developer to do what I just described, and I for one would LOVE to see it. A trilogy with importable characters, one huge, epic and overall story spanned through 3 games and with a consistent ruleset in the vein of old-school isometric RPGs and D&D would just be amazing.

Originally Posted by bjon045
I find it difficult to reconcile how two fan's of BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2 could have such different opinions of PoE. I loved everything about PoE (except ActIII of course - which is why it doesn't make my top20) and I thought White March 1&2 in particular were nothing short of amazing.

Was it the fact that it was Obsidian who made it? The fact that it wasn't D&D?

For me, POE is a decent and OK game, but it is not great. The biggest disappointment for me is the crappy combat system. They use a ruleset so like DND and change it in a ugly way. When i say i want to be a mighty wizard, i don't mean it literally! I feel very anticlimate when my wizard has high might.

The story is OK and the political setting of the world is quite fresh and innovative, but i don't buy the soul concept of this game.

Considering there is so few isomatic rpg these days, i will definitely try poeii when the game is at a discount.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
So there you go. PoE2 pitch looks interesting and I like what I've seen so far. But I am not going to fall for same trap again. Going to just simply sit back and wait for game's release and reviews. Probably will wait till the price is lowered so I don't end up regret spending $xx.

This is precisely how I felt about it. The banal world of PoE, combined with all the launch bugs turned me away to such a degree that I have yet to complete the game despite backing it for $150. I came close to pledging today in the final hours, but quickly came to my senses. I'll wait on reviews and the inevitable myriad of patches this time around.

Originally Posted by Fluent
…make a "new D&D" ruleset. They should have used PoE as their "First Edition rules", and then made Tyranny a game in that world with the ruleset, and then used the same ruleset for PoE2…

I never cease to thank the heavens they did not. Vancian magic needs to die. The future of our species depends upon it. Give me 13th Age or give me percentile based guaranteed death.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
I kinda want to ask what was so wonderful about PoE for all of you to pitch in but not sure if I will agree with whatever the reason might be - I might be able to just nod and say "fair enough" but that will be about it.

One of my biggest complaints about NWN and the upcoming 3D CRPGs was the amount of placeables. Although it has gotten better, the number of items you can use for a detailed environments is limited. You have one, two, three types of chests or desks and they are going to appear in the whole game permanently. You can't give it another texture, you can't paint wine spots on it, you can't even create an unique looking amalgam of items that can usually be found on such desks (like varied flower pots, for example). A level designer can only use what has been build before. As a result, items really seem to be placed by someone else. They are mainly used as a symbol for characterization, not as an expression for an individual state of life. This imho leads to a sterile, uniform impression of 3D game worlds in general. Deus Ex really tried hard to create individual appartments, but when all have the same kitchen design, it's really hard to overlook. Even Ikea didn't accomplish to sell the same furnishings and posters to the whole city over and over again. Even the few highlights you can find almost everywhere definitely don't look the same in every single appartment, even if it's only a piece of candle wax or a fleck from a coffe pot, a personal picture taped to the frame or things like that.

I wouldn't say painting a map is a simple task, but giving it a more individual, detailed look is easier than modelling it. As a result, all infinity games looked more unique, from the overall impression to the detail, than any 3D game. For me, this has always been important for immersion. I really like the level of individual detail on Pillars' maps. At the same time, it is abstract enough to let room for your own imagination. 2D isn't realistic, 3D tries to show you the world as it is. As a result, I'm thinking how this item can fit realistically into that small chest, instead of creating your own picture in mind. (I still admit, that exploring a large 3D environment like cities can be also very impressive, but mainly regarding the monumental design, not so much the details of every day life)

Also I ike how they managed to complete the transfer from turn-based pen & paper to real-time capacities of today's computers. I agree to the thesis that a part of the success of BG lies in its way to adapt classical CRPGs to the upcoming real-time era. But it did not complete that transition because of its D&D roots. The result was that several people from both factions haven't been happy with the result. PoE on the other hand isn't restricted by a licence and it doesn't try to reproduce a turn-based system. I accept that some people do not like that, but I do.

Last but not least they brought in the gameplay comfort I'd expect from today's Baldur's Gate and that most indie developers are not capable to implement. I don't know if it is a lack of expertise or plain simple money, but reducing clicks, giving filter options, customizing options and things like that really add to the experience. The only thing I really missed is the possibility to line up several commands for execution for every character, like in NWN2.

If you can live with the setting and the story, the combination of these things imho is reason enough, why Pillars is a great game. Not necessarily in the meaning of Greatest Games of All Times, but how it adds to the CRPG genre. Imho there is even more potential.

Originally Posted by bjon045
Agreed, it would probably be in my top 40 though. Over the last 35 years there have been so many great cRPG's made that it is no small feat to make it into my top 50

Imho that's not the appropriate benchmark. I'm not desperately looking for the next game to replace one of my all-time favorites. The question is, would there have been another game in that time and genre category that I would have enjoyed more than this one? Did I enjoy? Was it worth the time I spent with it? If the answer is positive, why should I care if it is Top20, Top40 or nothing at all? If I watch The Expendables, it's definitely not going to be one of my all-time favorites. I'm not even sure if I would add it to my private movie collection. But it is definitely possible to enjoy the visit.

Originally Posted by Fluent
But I also think Obsidian is missing a bit of an opportunity here. First opportunity is to make a "new D&D" ruleset. They should have used PoE as their "First Edition rules", and then made Tyranny a game in that world with the ruleset, and then used the same ruleset for PoE2. The games are too distant now and not tightly connected like BG1/BG2/IWD.

My guess is, that Tyranny IP belongs to Paradox, not Obsidian.

Originally Posted by Drithius
The banal world of PoE

I can imagine a lot of complaints, like purpleblob's depressing atmosphere. But banal in the meaning of simple and seen dozen times before isn't the thing that would come to my mind. Sure, it's not exotic and still high epic fantasy, but there is definitely some variation to the Tolkien formula.

Originally Posted by Avantenor
One of my biggest complaints about NWN and the upcoming 3D CRPGs was the amount of placeables. Although it has gotten better, the number of items you can use for a detailed environments is limited. You have one, two, three types of chests or desks and they are going to appear in the whole game permanently. You can't give it another texture, you can't paint wine spots on it, you can't even create an unique looking amalgam of items that can usually be found on such desks (like varied flower pots, for example). A level designer can only use what has been build before. As a result, items really seem to be placed by someone else. They are mainly used as a symbol for characterization, not as an expression for an individual state of life. This imho leads to a sterile, uniform impression of 3D game worlds in general. Deus Ex really tried hard to create individual appartments, but when all have the same kitchen design, it's really hard to overlook. Even Ikea didn't accomplish to sell the same furnishings and posters to the whole city over and over again. Even the few highlights you can find almost everywhere definitely don't look the same in every single appartment, even if it's only a piece of candle wax or a fleck from a coffe pot, a personal picture taped to the frame or things like that.

I wouldn't say painting a map is a simple task, but giving it a more individual, detailed look is easier than modelling it. As a result, all infinity games looked more unique, from the overall impression to the detail, than any 3D game. For me, this has always been important for immersion. I really like the level of individual detail on Pillars' maps. At the same time, it is abstract enough to let room for your own imagination. 2D isn't realistic, 3D tries to show you the world as it is. As a result, I'm thinking how this item can fit realistically into that small chest, instead of creating your own picture in mind. (I still admit, that exploring a large 3D environment like cities can be also very impressive, but mainly regarding the monumental design, not so much the details of every day life)

Also I ike how they managed to complete the transfer from turn-based pen & paper to real-time capacities of today's computers. I agree to the thesis that a part of the success of BG lies in its way to adapt classical CRPGs to the upcoming real-time era. But it did not complete that transition because of its D&D roots. The result was that several people from both factions haven't been happy with the result. PoE on the other hand isn't restricted by a licence and it doesn't try to reproduce a turn-based system. I accept that some people do not like that, but I do.

Last but not least they brought in the gameplay comfort I'd expect from today's Baldur's Gate and that most indie developers are not capable to implement. I don't know if it is a lack of expertise or plain simple money, but reducing clicks, giving filter options, customizing options and things like that really add to the experience. The only thing I really missed is the possibility to line up several commands for execution for every character, like in NWN2.

If you can live with the setting and the story, the combination of these things imho is reason enough, why Pillars is a great game. Not necessarily in the meaning of Greatest Games of All Times, but how it adds to the CRPG genre. Imho there is even more potential.

Like you, I prefer 2D environment over 3D for the reasons you've described but that really isn't a major decider for me.

I really thought about what it is about PoE that I don't like about, and I pretty much think it doesn't provide anything I want from the RPG.

-Depressing world compared to vibrant BG setting
-Stat system. I don't really like how endurance and hp is interlinked. I just think it's overly complicated for no real gain.
-NPCs. I couldn't connect to any of them. I know a lot of people praise Obsidian for its writing but I don't think I ever liked a single NPC written by Obsidian. Ok, I like Kreia and Atton from what I've read but I never really finished the game. I might be just liking a few selection of dialogues I've seen on youtube. EDIT: I liked HK 47 so I guess not all characters, 99%.
-Lore/Story. I don't like how players were introduced to world of Eora. It felt like an encyclopedia dump either from NPCs or codex entry. Reading through it was a chore, I didn't feel intrigued enough to find out about Eora. I merely read through lore dump because NPC was sprouting it out for no good reason or trying desperately to understand the plot somehow.
-Didn't really like the whole soul plot either from what I've read/understood
-Loading screens… seriously
-Rest mechanic. I understand why they did it, to restrict number of rest allowed till you are back in Town, but then why did they make player go through so many freaking loading screens to sleep at your own stronghold.
-Boring encounter designs. Especially those dungeons in your own stronghold. Same thing over and over.

So most of the time, I felt like I'm wandering through depressing world without clear purpose with bunch of NPCs I didn't care about. Heck, I couldn't even connect to my own character's story and couldn't careless if she died…

A few things I liked about PoE:
-It looks like BG from quick glance
-Some classes come across unique and refreshing - Chanter and Cypher
-Interactive items like chisels, ropes etc gives feel of real adventure
-It was surprisingly polished… For Obsidian standard

Mmm.. can't think of anything else.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
-Depressing world compared to vibrant BG setting

The big irony is , for such a depressing, wretched land, filled with lost souls and wanderers, where half of the children are killed at birth, I've expected my Godlike to be greeted accordingly, as a monster and abomination, but all I got was, Good day Sir, how may I be of assistance?

So, it wasn't a problem that they chose a grim mythos (as opposed to a "vibrant" one - that is largely a matter of taste), it's just that there was no reactivity to go with that.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
I know a lot of people praise Obsidian for its writing but I don't think I ever liked a single NPC written by Obsidian.

Kreia? And let's not forget neo-Obisidian has nothing in common with the Obsidian of old.

Am definitely looking forward to Deadfire. I backed it at the same level that I did the first game, and there've already been a couple add-ons to that tier from when I bought into it, so… awesome. (BTW, what's the significance of "space pigs", aside from being generally stupendous? Anyone?)

Re: PoE itself, I have to admit that while I didn't enjoy the grittier tone of setting quite as much as the high fantasy feel-good mish-mash of the Forgotten Realms, I found the whole discussion about the nature of souls, the possibility of using them, splintering them, and manipulating them to create either abominations or miracles fairly intriguing. And I found its take on the gods (gods being created, and gods in turn being destroyed, not to mention what remains afterward) more than a little fascinating.

The mechanics of the game… ehh… they're serviceable enough, but they never really grabbed me. I suppose this just goes back to my distaste for percentile-based incrementals; I find that, between the miniscule nature of a .01x "upgrade" and the seemingly compulsory need for designers to drown players in loot, the temptation is just too great and you end up with items that are clearly meant to be impressive within the setting, but which end up only offering a 3% bonus… to hit (not to damage)… 12% of the time. In other words: trash. A worthwhile upgrade should be noticeable in the thick of battle, and not just on the stats page, IMO.

I found the addition of chanters and ciphers with their "build it before you can use it" style of magic to be a refreshing addition to the wizards more traditional "fire it off, watch the world burn, and then poke at what remains with your stick while your spells recharge" approach. On the other hand, I found that EVERY class had powers that amounted to magic powers. Barbarians a-leaping and fighters telepor-- a-charging across the battlefield stretched the bounds of credulity too much for me. Gameplay clichés by now in the industry, sure, but there's nothing magical about anything if everyone can do it. Am guessing this involves that whole "class balance" nonsense, where every class now has to be able to go toe-to-toe with every other class in arena-style combat (whether there exists such an arena or not) or it's deemed "broken". Too much balance, and the entire system comes across as artificial, forced, hand-holdy… even (heaven forbid) MMOish. For a game with no multiplayer option, PoE got awfully close to that line for me, somehow.

Have to agree with whoever brought it up about the lack of character-continuity from PoE to PoE2, though… twinge of disappointment for me there, as well. Seems the current fashion these days to tell the story of the world, going from one grand event to another, but I miss the charm of taking my own character through that world without the grand hand of the STORY smashing him or her back down to level 1 from one installment to the next. Obsidian had a real opportunity with this IP to tell the story of the world they wanted, yes, and from what I can tell they're doing a good job of that, but also to create an overarching rule set robust enough to give a player such as myself a sense of progression through an entire series of games, rather than just one. BG-series style.

Granted, the DnD ruleset has been around long enough to have populated each character level with enough locations, foes, and scenarios to keep those levels interesting for long enough periods of time that you can easily cram a 100+ hour game into the first 8 levels -- and another 100+ hour game into the next 10 levels, and another 50-hour game into the remaining highest levels of the ruleset, before things start breaking down -- so I really can't fault Obsidian for not doing it, but still…. part of me was hoping. Taking MY character from one game to the next is an incredible way to invest players in a series. Sure, there are justifications and excuses that can be bandied about -- amnesia for the character, such-and-such a reason for the developers -- and they're all valid and true, but… *sigh* Ah well. Level 1 awaits, I suppose.

Still… good game. Finished it a couple times, now, and have no qualms about firing it up again when I get the itch. Looking forward to the next one, too, particularly since they seem to be looking to expand the old IE-game formula, rather than just recreate it over and over again.

Originally Posted by azarhal
No end date yet, but it should be open for a few weeks. Feargus said that Darren (their website guy) is working at adding something to track PayPal pledges/backers so they might announce how long it will last once that is set up.

Thanks. Why wouldn't they just let it run? It would give Obsidian a constant funding stream as they develop the game.

Originally Posted by DarNoor
Thanks. Why wouldn't they just let it run? It would give Obsidian a constant funding stream as they develop the game.

Currently it is offering the same tiers as FIG for the "slacker backers", after a few weeks it should change to a limited tier list until Obsidian has to lock stuff so they can send orders for the physical rewards.

You should also be able to add more stuff (i.e. add-ons) via the backer portal as well once the FIG pledge are moved over there (or if you backed directly from their portal).

Originally Posted by swapoer
For me, POE is a decent and OK game, but it is not great. The biggest disappointment for me is the crappy combat system. They use a ruleset so like DND and change it in a ugly way.

(…)

The story is OK and the political setting of the world is quite fresh and innovative, but i don't buy the soul concept of this game (…)

Totally second that

Originally Posted by swapoer
For me, POE is a decent and OK game, but it is not great. The biggest disappointment for me is the crappy combat system. They use a ruleset so like DND and change it in a ugly way. When i say i want to be a mighty wizard, i don't mean it literally! I feel very anticlimate when my wizard has high might.

After having played it for many hours, I like the PoE system. It's just different, and one needs to adjust to it a bit from the archaic and clunky AD&D system. (I suspect players who played with the HERO or GURPS PnP systems are better able to adapt.)

As for a wimpy Wizard, Aloth, for example, only has a Might 12, yet he does excellent in combat. If his Might were increased to 16, his fireball damage would increase by a whopping +6%. Whooptee freaking do. It's a +3% increase per +2 Might, so roughly a +1 bonus in AD&D for a +4 attribute. Int can more compensate for this with its increased duration and spell area.

Originally Posted by Mithter Thibbs
Have to agree with whoever brought it up about the lack of character-continuity from PoE to PoE2, though… twinge of disappointment for me there, as well. Seems the current fashion these days to tell the story of the world, going from one grand event to another, but I miss the charm of taking my own character through that world without the grand hand of the STORY smashing him or her back down to level 1 from one installment to the next. Obsidian had a real opportunity with this IP to tell the story of the world they wanted, yes, and from what I can tell they're doing a good job of that, but also to create an overarching rule set robust enough to give a player such as myself a sense of progression through an entire series of games, rather than just one. BG-series style.

Granted, the DnD ruleset has been around long enough to have populated each character level with enough locations, foes, and scenarios to keep those levels interesting for long enough periods of time that you can easily cram a 100+ hour game into the first 8 levels -- and another 100+ hour game into the next 10 levels, and another 50-hour game into the remaining highest levels of the ruleset, before things start breaking down -- so I really can't fault Obsidian for not doing it, but still…. part of me was hoping. Taking MY character from one game to the next is an incredible way to invest players in a series. Sure, there are justifications and excuses that can be bandied about -- amnesia for the character, such-and-such a reason for the developers -- and they're all valid and true, but… *sigh* Ah well. Level 1 awaits, I suppose.

Yep. I just find it a bit disappointing and a missed opportunity. I can't blame Obsidian that much, though, since as I said, D&D has many years of a head start. Still, some attempt to create a "real" ruleset that spans a few games would be a good start, and then they could have balanced it over the course of 30 levels or so. It seems like a large undertaking so I give them a pass on that. I do hope some developer has the ambition and ability to tackle that, though. Maybe Beamdog, even, with a new D&D RPG series. Of course, it would be the "real D&D", but hey, if it's another 2-game or even trilogy in the style of BG, that would be great. IMO.

Originally Posted by bjon045
Go play Dark Soul's/Mass Effect or whatever "RPG" you love then and leave the real rpg fans to PoE, one of the greatest RPG's ever made.

Oh boy … FYI, my RPG roots date back to the 1970s and Chainmail. Maybe you do or do not remember that game. But I do, with a warm glow. BTW -- Dark Souls or Mass Effect involved there.

Originally Posted by beldurax
Oh boy … FYI, my RPG roots date back to the 1970s and Chainmail. Maybe you do or do not remember that game. But I do, with a warm glow. BTW -- Dark Souls or Mass Effect involved there.

Well given you bag Pillars, Torment, Tyranny and WL2 so much - those are the alternatives! Can I ask what cRPG's you play these days? Aside from WL2, PoE, Divinity:OS, Tyranny and Torment I can't think of any decent one in the last 3 years.

This is what makes me frustrated. People who bag the new Renaissance of the cRPG and then fail to support it financially and then complain when we end up with Mass Effect 4/Fallout 4 and their craptastic ilk. Yes, none of those games I listed are perfect, but they are a darn site better than the alternative.

Any yes, I know chainmail but that is completely irrelevant. I care about computer RPG's not tabletop. There are literally hundreds of tabletop variants not too different than Chainmail available today. There are very few cRPG's though!

Yeah, I really can't fathom knocking the new batch of CRPGs all that much. While they ain't perfect, no game ever is, and they are still trying to capture some old-school magic, which is more than can be said for many RPG devs nowadays. So we should be rooting them on and supporting them. There is a line between constructive criticism and bashing, and we should all stay on the constructive side of things for these games.

I mean, WL2 gets knocked on the Codex a lot, and I just don't understand why? How many CRPGs with that many stats, attributes, options, HIGH END NERD LEVEL STUFF in a pen-and-paper style are being made nowadays? Root these people on, man.

Originally Posted by bjon045
Well given you bag Pillars, Torment, Tyranny and WL2 so much - those are the alternatives! Can I ask what cRPG's you play these days? Aside from WL2, PoE, Divinity:OS, Tyranny and Torment I can't think of any decent one in the last 3 years.

This is what makes me frustrated. People who bag the new Renaissance of the cRPG and then fail to support it financially and then complain when we end up with Mass Effect 4/Fallout 4 and their craptastic ilk. Yes, none of those games I listed are perfect, but they are a darn site better than the alternative.

Any yes, I know chainmail but that is completely irrelevant. I care about computer RPG's not tabletop. There are literally hundreds of tabletop variants not too different than Chainmail available today. There are very few cRPG's though!

I know this was not directed to me but could I add my 2c?

Personally I don't think it's the finance reason that creates mediocre games, more of a passion issue. Money helps ofcourse, but ME/FO4 were produced from AAA where they tend to get vastly more funding than other game developers out there (let me know if my assumption isn't correct).

I don't support Obsidian for two reasons: 1. They've been around for a while so should have enough experience to create a decent game but failed to meet my expectation esp with PoE. Note, that this is my expectation and reasons are explained above in other post in this thread. 2. I generally don't like giving $$$ when I don't have end product in front of me. It's just my own principle.

Perhaps I am not as passionate about gaming as you guys to help developers create *potentially* good games. I'm not against kickstarter itself. It has pros and cons like all other things. It helped Larian deliver D:OS which I enjoyed a lot. I also enjoy playing a good variety of games and kickstarter is def giving opportunities for developers to works in old school style games. So as I said, good luck to Obsidian, hope they can create something good and hope I will enjoy it this time too.

I enjoyed PoE quite a bit, but I also feel the setting was a bit too depressing. One of the few drawbacks for me. What I can't understand is: Why is this such a trend? I know Alrik was going on about it years ago, but it seems worse than ever, despite the fact that most gamers I talk to prefer more varied or vibrant settings like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Gothic, Warcraft etc.

I just don't get why writers continue to prefer settings where everyone's miserable.

I tend to like lighter stories myself for games and books for that matter but my taste in-games reflects that. I have been okay with POE though I have only made it as far as the start of Act 2 so don't know how dark it gets.

Perhaps I am not as passionate about gaming as you guys to help developers create *potentially* good games.

I have no desire at all to give money to a company to make a game I am not overly interested in or have little plan to play. If I am gun-ho about it then I will spend some of my recreational money towards a kick-starter. But I don't see them as a charity. I save my charity money for actual charities that help people and animals in need.