Torment:ToN - Beyond the Beyond

They didn't have to reveal the plot in the trailer though….

To me, the story is better than it was in PoE, and although I've spent far more hours with PoE I've enjoyed Torment alot more. The main story is good, but what's really great is the setting and atmosphere, which I felt were lacking in PoE partly because it simply was a bit too dark for my tastes.

Actually, the similarity with Baldurs gate and PS:T is kind of funny, Baldurs gate had better combat and the game was more massive, but PS:T had the more intriguing setting and story. Although I have a harder time picking a favorite between those two than between their "spiritual successors".

Originally Posted by luj1
They didn't have to reveal the plot in the trailer though….

I haven't seen the trailer, what does it say?

Originally Posted by exsiccation

Originally Posted by luj1
They didn't have to reveal the plot in the trailer though….

That is the premise of the game, not the plot.

Well in that case, they didn't have to include the plot in the premise of the game. If I recall correctly, in PST you knew zilch when you woke up. Which has added immensely to my enjoyment.

Originally Posted by tomasp3n
I haven't seen the trailer, what does it say?

What if you were a by-product of another's immortality… (dramatic music) … abandoned and left to die by your creator… will you confront your godlike father?

Yeah, ok. But you learn that in the first two hours or so anyways.

No, I'd say it's pretty much the VERY FIRST THING YOU LEARN.

BTW, I hope the people leaving negative feedback or slamming the game don't think developers will be flocking to make niche CRPGs with tons of writing and dialogue choices for them after this.

Originally Posted by PegasusOrgans
BTW, I hope the people leaving negative feedback or slamming the game don't think developers will be flocking to make niche CRPGs with tons of writing and dialogue choices for them after this.

No, because we are sick and tired of these ""successor" games baked on pure nostalgia. None of them can even come close to originals and never will - times has changed!
Instead we want this genre to move forward and evolve, developers must start to think outside of 1997 formula, making games with real roleplaying and c&c.

NOTE: Quotes are from different people - it was just simpler to do it this way.

Oh, and if I could choose ONE improvement to the crisis system it would be the option to increase the battle speed. I haven't really been bothered by it but except by the middle game battle which I had to replay three times before I figured it out, but still…

Aye. I am okay now with combat but a few times I was gritting my teeth at the speed rate - especially for two particular crisis instances. One takes a very long time and if you fail … it is painful to restart Probably the same battle you mention.

Is the story any good? I just didn't find Pillars to be very gripping. I didn't finish it.

To show how dependent this is on taste will give a completely opposite answer to Kordanor. I think the story is amazing. Every day after work I can't wait to get home and play more. I only have about 2 hours during work nights to play games and really look forward to it. Last night (being a weeknight) I played for almost 5 hours straight. Been ages since I did that (not just due to time but being old my stamina in front of the computer, after 9 hours of computer work at work, is not what it was).

I love the story and the characters. Very unique compared to most games I play (granted I also love Beth games which are very unpopular here so my tastes are different). When I did meet the Sorrow it was well done and epic - considering this is just a 2D style game. I am very sucked into the story.

Another thing I love, which I think some people are missing, is there is a lot of gray areas on choices, especially inside the Bloom, yet if you really HUNT around and avoid making some decisions two quickly - you often find 2-3 different ways to approach a solution. Last night I almost was going to do a rather dark deed (for my character) thinking it was the only choice. But after more scouring and talking I found a perfect solution instead. I may do a review and highlight some of these when I am done.

I am the first to admit I am not overally critical of game writing though and thought the stories in Skyrim and FO4 were also good - but if it helps I think the story in ToN is far better. But can't stress enough how my tastes seem to differ from the majority around here. A lot of folks here seem stuck in the past and always going on and on about how great all the old games were and how everything new sucks I like my nostalgic memories for old games but also enjoy new ones.

I hope they add a lot because I blazed through their original content and am left wanting a lot more. I mean, yes I read fast but that was still a very short game by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe they look at game statistics on games like Pillars of Eternity and just figure most people don't finish games anymore.

I am at 27 hours as of last night and only half-way through the Bloom. So I suspect I will end up with 30-35 hours total. While I would prefer twice that I am pretty comfortable with 30 hours for the money paid. Its a fun game for me. I may do one second play through after I wait a bit for memory to dim a little and patches/updates to come out. Will then play a different focus with different companions. Although I generally don't see this as a game for multiple play throughs as much simply because it is reading heavy and the basic story and lore won't change much.

Will end with saying that so far only one quest was I unable to complete - just could not solve it. I also love that there is so little hand holding. You really have to search for information, talk a lot, go through dialogue, experiment, try different things. I am constantly amazed at finding new ways of doing X even when I was thought it was "clear" this is what you were supposed to do.

EDIT: Also love how they do death. Sometimes you die and come back and other times … game over. You can even die in dialogue (permanently) which was awesome. Though you have to reload the game you still learn something important which I thought was a subtle and unique thing.

I just finished it. Good ending, I really enjoy the fact you get to know what happened to several places and people you met, Fallout style. To me that is one of the more important things with C&C, to actually feel what I did in the game mattered. It also makes replays more interesting, since even if I can change how the game ends (which I did by reloading four times), I can't very well change what I did in the beginning of the game.

I clocked in at 27 hours, and I read pretty much everything and finished every sidequest I could find. As far as I'm aware of I'm a fast reader, so those 20 hours people are reporting should mean alot of skipped text. I'm guessing my next playthrough will probably be over alot faster though. The game certainly didn't feel too short in the sense it wasn't a great experience, but I'm kind of sad because I really didn't want it to end just yet. I can't really say the story moved me the same way PS:T did, but I did detect some kind of moisture in my eyes when I read through the epilogue texts in the end. Always a good sign.

If this game had been released last year it would have been my GOTY for sure, now with some pretty damn interesting titles coming up I guess I'll have to wait and see. But time and money well spent.

Originally Posted by Zogar Sag
No, because we are sick and tired of these ""successor" games baked on pure nostalgia. None of them can even come close to originals and never will - times has changed!
Instead we want this genre to move forward and evolve, developers must start to think outside of 1997 formula, making games with real roleplaying and c&c.

"Times have changed"? Umm yeah, but hardly for the better? Of course there are some games that gives exellent choices in C&C like AoD, but that one's hardly considered a benchmark for where the market is going is it? I replayed Baldurs Gate last year, and it's still a great game, but are you sure the reason none of the new games can come close to the originals in your opinion isn't a pair of rose tinted glasses? I know I wear mine all the time.

All I know is that if I rank my favourite 5 games from the last 5 years, 5 of them are probably crowdfunded games and many of them the "spiritual successors" to games I played and loved when I was younger. Sure, I'm hoping for them to take this genre and evolve it further, but to bash on games that are still a lot closer to my version of *perfect* than the mainstream AAA titles just because they maybe *quite* can't reach the levels of their predecessors? That seems a bit silly, and a perfect way to make sure no one ever will try to make these kind of games again.

Originally Posted by Zogar Sag

Originally Posted by PegasusOrgans
BTW, I hope the people leaving negative feedback or slamming the game don't think developers will be flocking to make niche CRPGs with tons of writing and dialogue choices for them after this.

No, because we are sick and tired of these ""successor" games baked on pure nostalgia. None of them can even come close to originals and never will - times has changed!

I don't think it's fair to put all these post-KS "successor" RPG in the same basket, though. Some are (far) better than others. For me inXile is three steps ahead of neo-Obsidian.

Originally Posted by Zogar Sag
Instead we want this genre to move forward and evolve, developers must start to think outside of 1997 formula, making games with real roleplaying and c&c.

Alright but RPG of the 90s were some of the best. You just can't top that, as you well observed. I don't mind that formula as long as it's done properly, and within an original setting.

And concerning your desire to TRULY re-invent RPG, I'm not sure whether that's possible without becoming something else entirely. Do you want to start a video game company with me?

For me, I am more interested in the pace. I'm not expecting every game to be a new classic in fantasy storytelling. But Pillars just sort of drops you in and I felt like I was just running around after a while.

Originally Posted by tomasp3n
"Times have changed"? Umm yeah, but hardly for the better? Of course there are some games that gives exellent choices in C&C like AoD, but that one's hardly considered a benchmark for where the market is going is it? I replayed Baldurs Gate last year, and it's still a great game, but are you sure the reason none of the new games can come close to the originals in your opinion isn't a pair of rose tinted glasses? I know I wear mine all the time.

I'm not saying there isn't any great new games, there are! I am talking about games, which are made purely on nostalgia as some "successors" to old beloved titles.
I see that we, gamers and fans are guilty that there isn't any innovation in this genre for years - with cheesy and sugared reviews, denying most critique and calling it "hate"", buying early access just to get another shiny "empty promises" as soon as possible and so on.
Why developers must evolve, when they can sell old formulas over and over again, even for bigger price and with lesser effort!
We are guilty for this, because we support it!

Originally Posted by luj1



Alright but RPG of the 90s were some of the best. You just can't top that, as you well observed. I don't mind that formula as long as it's done properly, and within an original setting.

And concerning your desire to TRULY re-invent RPG, I'm not sure whether that's possible without becoming something else entirely. Do you want to start a video game company with me?

There always must be the new way - after all human imagination has no boundaries, right?
With late RPGs it feels to me like we are still listening to classic music and all new composers just copy Mozart and Bach again and again, why not invent pop music or heavy metal? Hope you understand what I mean here

And, sorry, I have zero knowledge in making games myself, so cant be of any asistance to your new gaming company…only if you need plumber there

Alright, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but if all there was to the new wave of "successors" was a name and no game that wouldn't actually work. Maybe once in a crowdfunded game (SotA?) but most developers actually have to deliver too. And in my book Larian, inXile and HBS certainly delivers good games. PoE was also good enough for me to have faith in Obsidian still, but to me they have the most left to prove with the upcoming sequel.

I see it a little differently.

Imho it's more like ice cream flavors.

Let's say that I like ice with vanilla flavor, then I might like all kinds of new products coming out with vanilla flavour.

Now I might also test out new stuff like bubble gum flavor or a vanilla mochito mix.
But I might still prefer my goold old vanilla flavour.

Haha, that's actually a nice analogy Kordanor. Well put.

Originally Posted by Zogar Sag
I'm not saying there isn't any great new games, there are! I am talking about games, which are made purely on nostalgia as some "successors" to old beloved titles.
I see that we, gamers and fans are guilty that there isn't any innovation in this genre for years - with cheesy and sugared reviews, denying most critique and calling it "hate"", buying early access just to get another shiny "empty promises" as soon as possible and so on.
Why developers must evolve, when they can sell old formulas over and over again, even for bigger price and with lesser effort!
We are guilty for this, because we support it!

That's true. Harsh critique is looked upon as hate while naive optimism became desirable somehow. I think of all the popular RPG boards that's most evident here on the Watch. People cry all the time concerning the Codex and its "vitriol" but that's how you keep the bar high, despite whatever one may think. And that's why developers respect them so they often get interviews.

Originally Posted by Zogar Sag
There always must be the new way - after all human imagination has no boundaries, right?

Well the problem with that is you just can't top some things. You mentioned Mozzart. Quality is never out of fashion they say. So no, I don't get tired from Mozzart or BG2 or PST or Heroes III or Morrowind or whatever. If something is good, I say don't change it.

What we can work with though, is the format (isometric, first-person, third-person, text-based, browser-based, operating system-based etc.) and the setting/mythos/universe (fantasy, steampunk, dieselpunk, gothic, SF, post-apocalypse etc.). So I'm saying we should keep design philosophies which have been proven as desirable imho.