New hard evidence of female Scandinavian warriors

Originally Posted by SirJames
Damn, I want a shield maiden!

Is that show worth a look?

Nope. I stopped watching during first season.

Originally Posted by Eye
Nope. I stopped watching during first season.

It makes sense why women wouldnt like the show, the one good woman in the show seem to get royally screwed over and the rest are calculating bitches. Its not a perspective of women that normal women would like I would think.

Originally Posted by Damian
It makes sense why women wouldnt like the show, the one good woman in the show seem to get royally screwed over and the rest are calculating bitches. Its not a perspective of women that normal women would like I would think.

Ya it's definitely not for everyone. Important to note though, is this isn't Game of Thrones where whatever happens is up to the author. Obviously there's still many creative liberties taken in the show, but portrayal of female rights is probably given an advantage of what actually happened during that timeline in history, rather than the other way around.

I've seen the show a few times and my impression of her is this: yellow valkyrie needs food badly.

Shame this thread got derailed because it was mildly interesting before that.

I wish people would just refrain from commenting on stuff they don't care about. If it's not something you care about then there's no reason to fuck it up for everyone else.

Aside from the issues of 'shield-maiden' debate and controversy, does anyone even wonder how it is that a predominant basis of archaeology is the unearthing of graves (otherwise considered sacred in numerous religions); i.e, grave robbery?

Query; do archaeologists have more nightmares than the average academic?

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As long as the direct descendants arent alive to sue, its ok.
As long as we keep the perpetually outraged fanatics that protest everything on behalf of what they think someone else should be outraged by, away from archeology, science in that area can progress.

Originally Posted by lostforever
This site is also in question,



Ars Technica is basing their stuff from Judith Jesch (see below for more details) who is University of Nottingham professor of Viking studies and she doesn't seem convinced….

http://norseandviking.blogspot.co.uk/

Anyway the point is that, this not as clear cut as OP implied.

Well at least part of the puzzle is solved. We may not be sure if the skeletal remains were relevant to the grave, but we know they were female.

I think female Vikings existed, but I dont think they used swords or two handed swords. It would be one big enigma for me if they found out that female vikings used two handed swords. For one handed swords females had to wield them differently to men and have to be trained specifically for that, I dotn think they had that for Vikings. I struggle to see how a female could wield a two handed sword well, most men cannot do that(I am talking generally in terms of 99% of women wouldnt be able to use a two handed sword properly and 90% of men couldnt either I would think).

This is how women fight with one handed swords(sorry if this video doesnt show much, but I found it hard to find professional female sword fighting):

Notice how the women use momentum with their feet to get force in their swings?


This is two handheld male sword fighting:

Notice how much less foot work is used except for the thrust?

Originally Posted by Lucky Day
The Shield Maiden, a rare, brave and fascinating woman, with the courage of a man

Originally Posted by Eye
Annoying.

Now out of the town of Sle, under the captains Hetha (Heid) and Wisna, with Hakon Cut-cheek came Tummi the Sailmaker. On these captains, who had the bodies of women, nature bestowed the souls of men. Webiorg was also inspired with the same spirit, and was attended by Bo (Bui) Bramason and Brat the Jute, thirsting for war.
— Saxo Grammaticus

If that's not the source of that description I'd be surprised.

Originally Posted by Damian
I think female Vikings existed, but I dont think they used swords or two handed swords. It would be one big enigma for me if they found out that female vikings used two handed swords. For one handed swords females had to wield them differently to men and have to be trained specifically for that, I dotn think they had that for Vikings. I struggle to see how a female could wield a two handed sword well, most men cannot do that(I am talking generally in terms of 99% of women wouldnt be able to use a two handed sword properly and 90% of men couldnt either I would think).
Notice how much less foot work is used except for the thrust?

Well lots to go over here. First of all vikings did use swords, but the axe was the preferred weapon. Swords were used, but they had greater weight for warrior symbolism, rather than a tool of war. Also, the swords used by vikings were usually of the short 1h variety, not too different from a roman spatha, as they heavily favored shields. The videos you posted are of the western martial arts style that came out about 500 years later, when armor technology had advanced considerably, dropping the need for shields almost completely, and the longsword had replaced all other swords because of how versatile they were as a 1h or 2h weapon (which is why they're often refered to as a hand and a half sword). Last time I discussed western martial arts fighting with both Sword Academy or Forge (who teach HEMA classes here nearby), they said there's no difference between genders for styles of fighting. There is however different ways to to use longswords, as they're are 4 basic stances and many different versions of the longsword itself. You can see plenty of videos where the longsword is used as a 1h, 2h, staff, or even pommel fighting. On top of that, during those times, advanced armor designs allowed for opponents to even grab and block blades with their hands, fight with the sword by the blade with the hilt towards their enemy, or a combination of both (one hand on the pommel, the other halfway up the blade):



In regards to 2h swords, and greatswords, these were just other labels for a longsword. The real true 2H swords were extremely specialized, or used more as a type of polearm, so in that regard, yes you probably wouldn't see any women using a true 2h weapon, and if they did, they would be using it as if it were a poleaxe.

Originally Posted by Caddy
Well lots to go over here. First of all vikings did use swords, but the axe was the preferred weapon. Swords were used, but they had greater weight for warrior symbolism, rather than a tool of war. Also, the swords used by vikings were usually of the short 1h variety, not too different from a roman spatha, as they heavily favored shields. The videos you posted are of the western martial arts style that came out about 500 years later, when armor technology had advanced considerably, dropping the need for shields almost completely, and the longsword had replaced all other swords because of how versatile they were as a 1h or 2h weapon (which is why they're often refered to as a hand and a half sword). Last time I discussed western martial arts fighting with both Sword Academy or Forge (who teach HEMA classes here nearby), they said there's no difference between genders for styles of fighting. There is however different ways to to use longswords, as they're are 4 basic stances and many different versions of the longsword itself. You can see plenty of videos where the longsword is used as a 1h, 2h, staff, or even pommel fighting. On top of that, during those times, advanced armor designs allowed for opponents to even grab and block blades with their hands, fight with the sword by the blade with the hilt towards their enemy, or a combination of both (one hand on the pommel, the other halfway up the blade):

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In regards to 2h swords, and greatswords, these were just other labels for a longsword. The real true 2H swords were extremely specialized, or used more as a type of polearm, so in that regard, yes you probably wouldn't see any women using a true 2h weapon, and if they did, they would be using it as if it were a poleaxe.

I recognize that, but wasnt it because the swordfighting style of women was beneficial for men too to get more power that it was adopted but both sexes, but it was originally designed for women? Or am i mistaken with that?

Originally Posted by Damian
I recognize that, but wasnt it because the swordfighting style of women was beneficial for men too to get more power that it was adopted but both sexes, but it was originally designed for women? Or am i mistaken with that?

Hmm, not sure, there might be a hybrid style that combines WMA with other styles, but for HEMA a lot of it in the beginning was guessing and practicing with historical manuals. I know they've combined judo and jiu jitsu (since they are quite similar anyways) when they mix grappling with weapons, but as for what you're talking about, i've never heard of it. If you do find more info on it, i'd be interested to hear more.

Originally Posted by Caddy
Hmm, not sure, there might be a hybrid style that combines WMA with other styles, but for HEMA a lot of it in the beginning was guessing and practicing with historical manuals. I know they've combined judo and jiu jitsu (since they are quite similar anyways) when they mix grappling with weapons, but as for what you're talking about, i've never heard of it. If you do find more info on it, i'd be interested to hear more.

I could have sworn i read or heard something about it on the internet years ago, but it is impossible to find obscure links on the internet older than 6 months old these days it seems.

Side note. Katheryn Winnick who plays Lagertha in Vikings, is a trained and licensed bodyguard, with a 3rd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and 2nd degree in Karate. Pretty close to a modern day shieldmaiden.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Shame this thread got derailed because it was mildly interesting before that.

Yeah, I wished there had been more serious talk about Viking history. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Yeah, I wished there had been more serious talk about Viking history. Seriously.

Agreed. Subject is pretty fertile for discussion. Problem is that evidence is conflicting, Found a good discussion (Viking Warrior Women: Did ‘Shieldmaidens’ Like Lagertha Really Exist?), The authors seem to have excellent credentials (Kathleen O’Neal Gear & W. Michael Gear are Anthropologists and award winning authors who have authored and co-authored over 40 books.)

They reach a conclusion that evidence does support existence of individual female warriors. Beyond that is left for future evidence:

So did the shieldmaidens exist? When taken as a whole, the literary, historical, and archaeological evidence suggests that there were individual Viking women who cultivated warriors’ skills and, if the sagas can be believed, some achieved great renown in battle. Were there communities of Viking women warriors, as [controversial 12th century Danish historian, Saxo Grammaticus] claims? There may have been, but there just isn’t enough proof to definitively say so…yet.

However, Lagertha, you personally are still on solid ground. You go, girl.

Lagertha is btw the female warrior character from the History Channel series, Vikings.

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Well, what I often think is this : Females have a different body composition, and especially regarding the muscles. They are able to have a much finer movement because of that, so why not take advantage of that ? People might have thought long ago.

And, besides, I have personally seen women looking/being as high and as strong as men, women with such a psysical building would be good warriors, too. I think.

And, besides, the mother of Grendel was very good in fighting as well, it seems.

Grendel's mother, who is never given a name in the text, is the subject of ongoing controversy among medieval scholars. This is due to the ambiguity of a few words in Old English which appear in the original Beowulf manuscript. While there is consensus over the word "modor" (mother), the phrase "ides, aglæcwif" is the subject of scholarly debate.

An not uninteresting read on that topic : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grendel%27s_mother

For the Beowulf, it all boils down to a few words of which some are still not understood, and the possibility to dismiss the description oof Grendel's mother as a "monster" and instead repolace that meaning for the word as a "warrior". It is possible, although still in discussion, that Grendel's mother must be called a "warrior". Read the article from the link above on that.

It might show that women were capable of fighting during the phase when the Beowulf saga was created, too. Or else she wouldn't have been included in such a way, I think.