Pillars of Eternity II - Multiclassing

The latest update on Pillars of Eternity 2 goes into multiclassing.

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Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Game Director, Josh Sawyer, is here to go over the changes that have been made to the multi-classing system in Deadfire as well as showing it off in the game! To learn more about Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire go to: https://eternity.obsidian.net To join the conversation on this update, head over to our forums: Miss the last update? Check it out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQHKc…

More information.

I prefer class specialization over multi-classing. Guess I'm too old school roleplayer.

Here they (developers) come again with numbers. 55 combinations of classes? Ok, to have more options is good, but even better would be if the system was good, which was not the case for PoE1. I hope this one is better. I liked the abilities tree though.

Originally Posted by wolfing
I prefer class specialization over multi-classing. Guess I'm too old school roleplayer.

Wasn't multi-classing a thing before sub-classes were in AD&D?

Saying that, this game basically have both, sub-classes are pretty much specializations. The forum post (the link that says to read josh's explanation) explains more about sub-classes by the way

edit:

Originally Posted by gabrielarantest
Here they (developers) come again with numbers. 55 combinations of classes?

Going by someone on Neogaf, if you include the sub-classes the total possible combination is actually 1210…

Originally Posted by wolfing
I prefer class specialization over multi-classing. Guess I'm too old school roleplayer.

Specialization over multi-classing as old school?

Am I missing something from Chainmail, because AD&D (1E) had multi-classing but no class specialization. It also had dual classing and sub-classes (did you mean sub-classes instead of class specialization?)

The expanded skills list looks good. The entirety looks more like a proper character creation system now. Plenty of variety and unique flavor. They've even got wizard familiars for the Conjurer subclass, although the Transmuter class option looks cooler.

Anything from 2nd edition D&D is good with me, glad they are ditching the other editions influence in this department. That said, I never was a multi-class type person when it comes to creating characters, always preferred "pure" builds in class systems.

Originally Posted by Merin
Specialization over multi-classing as old school?

Am I missing something from Chainmail, because AD&D (1E) had multi-classing but no class specialization. It also had dual classing and sub-classes (did you mean sub-classes instead of class specialization?)

It had multi-classing but you really gimped yourself if you did, unless you were playing a low level adventure. Yes, sub-classes would be similar to class specialization.

Something not mentioned in the update, but briefly shown in the video in one of the game UI.

There is 7 active skills (stuff like athletic, stealth, etc) and 10 passives skills (knowledge skills and persuasion skills like bluff and intimidate). For comparison, the first POE had both mixed together for a total of 5 skills.

Obsidian game design theory:

1. Start off with a foundation of neat ideas
2. Make underlying systems way over-complicated
3. Continue biting off more than you can chew, run short on time, and release bug-ridden mess.
4. Wonder why a publisher with deep pockets and little sense won't buy you out.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Going by someone on Neogaf, if you include the sub-classes the total possible combination is actually 1210…

Still, it begs the question if more combinations make the game better or even worse.

Monk subclass that gains wound by hitting enemies?
Liking the looks of ability tree though.

Originally Posted by gabrielarantest
Still, it begs the question if more combinations make the game better or even worse.

People complained about the lack of build options in the first game. I think this make the game better for many of them.

Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty
Monk subclass that gains wound by hitting enemies?
Liking the looks of ability tree though.

It's the sub-class for people who don't get it. The Ranger have one where you don't really have a pet (it's a limited time summon). The Chanter has a passive focused one for people who always forget to cast invocation (that's me).

The UI looks very good. This looks like a game with a lot more time, bigger team and budget.

Originally Posted by azarhal
People complained about the lack of build options in the first game. I think this make the game better for many of them.

The problem of building options of PoE1 was that I didn't matter what class or abilities you chose it always felt that it didn't make any difference in your character. It felt that all classes were the same thing. I think that was the lack of options that so many complained. The abilities system and classes were poorly designed mainly because they thought they could create a new version of D&D with everything balanced - like it would be that easy.

My main concern is that Obsidian won't fix this flawed system in PoE2. They seem to be concerned with other stuff, like the number of classes. Or maybe they just don't want to change it. Which is odd because I remember Sawyer saying that they have made mistakes with PoE's system. So, why they seem to be insisting on it? And that would be a shame because the first game had so many good qualities.

Originally Posted by gabrielarantest
The problem of building options of PoE1 was that I didn't matter what class or abilities you chose it always felt that it didn't make any difference in your character. It felt that all classes were the same thing. I think that was the lack of options that so many complained. The abilities system and classes were poorly designed mainly because they thought they could create a new version of D&D with everything balanced - like it would be that easy.

Going by what you wrote there, I suspect you haven't played the game much.

The classes are pigeonholed into very specific roles in POE via their abilities/spells. None of the class played the same unless you purposely ignore all their class abilities which mean playing like crap (the way of cheesing the game exploit the hell out of class abilities).

For example, the majority of the Fighter class abilities are those of a melee tank. The majority of the Ranger class abilities are meant to be used on the pet or a ranged weapon. If you want a ranged fighter you are better off with the Ranger for his ranged weapons abilities, but you are stuck with an unwanted pet.

In POE2, you'll be able to make a Devoted Fighter that focus on ranged weapons and multi-class it with the "petless" Ranger sub-class. You couldn't play that in POE1.

Originally Posted by azarhal
Going by what you wrote there, I suspect you haven't played the game much.

Well, according to my steam account I have 295 hrs on record for PoE1. I think that I actually played it a little too much. I finished the game and also its expansions. You don't need to explain to me how it works or tell me that I played "like crap". I just have a different opinion than you. As I said before, IMO the system was poorly design, because they tried to balance everything and it felt like every build you chose for your character felt the same. Maybe you don't felt that way, but that doesn't mean you play "like crap" or didn't play at all.

Originally Posted by gabrielarantest
Well, according to my steam account I have 295 hrs on record for PoE1. I think that I actually played it a little too much. I finished the game and also its expansions. You don't need to explain to me how it works or tell me that I played "like crap". I just have a different opinion than you. As I said before, IMO the system was poorly design, because they tried to balance everything and it felt like every build you chose for your character felt the same. Maybe you don't felt that way, but that doesn't mean you play "like crap" or didn't play at all.

There is no opinions in the fact that Wizard accuracy is shit with weapons and Fighters have no spells.

What you are saying right now is that you used weapons on your Wizards and not their spells and pretended they were Fighters. That's what "all builds felt the same" means: your weapons, class abilities and combat options are all the same on all classes…which is not the case in POE.

Builds felt the same is not "I decided to max might on all my characters because that gives me max DPS" and never tried anything else.

The system was designed so that no stat was useless. So that if you made all your stats "12" you wouldn't be much worse off than if you maxed out 2 stats. Personally I thought that added something to the game, but it is true you can't make worthless characters, and some players really hated the system since its far away from 2nd edition D&D and caters to a broader audience. Also your choices with feats or attributes aren't so dramatic with D&D 2nd edition. Build a mage with 6 constitution and a couple of well placed arrows can bring him down until he gets mirror image and stoneskin. Dumping a stat in POE doesn't result in such drastic weaknesses (or strengths). On the other hand you can build a more offensive or defensively oriented fighter. My 2nd playthrough party had a melee and a ranged rogue for example, and they played fairly differently. I also tried some unconventional things. In my first party I turned Sagani into my off tank. She used sword and board and intercepted anyone I hadn't turned over to Eder, and she worked quite well in that capacity. In my second party I didn't use a fighter and my main tank was my monk character who I dressed in heavy armour. He actually worked excellently in that capacity, so you can make multiple builds in the game.

Originally Posted by azarhal
That's what "all builds felt the same" means: your weapons, class abilities and combat options are all the same on all classesÂ…which is not the case in POE .

No, "felt the same" is different from "is the same". It is not about facts, but subjective experience. So yes, there is different opinions. Of course PoE has classes, and different powers, and flavors or what so ever. You speak as if I’m not aware of that. But when it comes down to numbers it was all of the same.


Forgottenlor said "Dumping a stat in POE doesn't result in such drastic weaknesses", and that is a bad thing. Actually, playing the game I felt that my options didn't matter. I could not perceive much difference in my characters as I decided to increase an attribute. The spells were the worst; you felt no variation among spells. It was not like in D&D where when a character is frightened you see him fleeing, or like in DOS when you cast fire spells you burn stuff. The effect of magic and powers were all the same, you could get some penalties in a defense status, or maybe an attack penalty, or you can get slower, and so on. But all of these effects were just some numbers in a very confusing system. And those numbers were basically the same for every build. But the worst thing is that you cannot perceive any difference. And for me, when you can't perceive the difference between your actions in the game, this game is not rewarding anymore and the combat becomes dull. And that was the case of PoE IMHO.

Originally Posted by gabrielarantest
No, "felt the same" is different from "is the same". It is not about facts, but subjective experience. So yes, there is different opinions. Of course PoE has classes, and different powers, and flavors or what so ever. You speak as if I’m not aware of that. But when it comes down to numbers it was all of the same.

Forgottenlor said "Dumping a stat in POE doesn't result in such drastic weaknesses", and that is a bad thing. Actually, playing the game I felt that my options didn't matter. I could not perceive much difference in my characters as I decided to increase an attribute. The spells were the worst; you felt no variation among spells. It was not like in D&D where when a character is frightened you see him fleeing, or like in DOS when you cast fire spells you burn stuff. The effect of magic and powers were all the same, you could get some penalties in a defense status, or maybe an attack penalty, or you can get slower, and so on. But all of these effects were just some numbers in a very confusing system. And those numbers were basically the same for every build. But the worst thing is that you cannot perceive any difference. And for me, when you can't perceive the difference between your actions in the game, this game is not rewarding anymore and the combat becomes dull. And that was the case of PoE IMHO.

Despite 295 hours into the game, you sound like you failed at experimenting with builds in POE. If you can't feel the difference between a support Priest and a damage Priest, well…

In fact, I wonder how you can tolerate DOS going by how it is very similarly to POE with its status effect giving malus to stats and elemental/damage type resistances…and being class-less, well everything is really the same.