ELEX - Pro & Contra

Originally Posted by Gwendo
For some reason, I just can't get into Piranha Bytes games. Gothic at the time was interesting, but the cluncky controls and combat wore me out. I could even get into Ryzen, once again, cluncky controls and combat. And, of course, extremely buggy games.

If someone could make a mod to rework Gothic 1's controls I would download it in a heartbeat. That and make it easier to hit meatbugs.

I couldn't help myself yesterday. I tripped on over to GOG and plunked down my coin for my copy of ELEX. Now I'm marking the days until Oct. 17th when I can download.

Originally Posted by Silver
That and make it easier to hit meatbugs.

Do you know the Pickaxe trick? If not, Pickaxe's hit meatbugs.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Do you know the Pickaxe trick? If not, Pickaxe's hit meatbugs.

I know it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Exploring is most important for me, so I am looking forward to this. UI (HUD and inventory management) look really crappy, as if they've hired untalented UI guys from Egosoft. ;-)

I agree about the UI. I especially dislike the health bars. I think they're too large and bright.

It's a minor complaint though if the rest of the game comes close to reaching its potential.

Good exploration, shitty combat. Called it.

Originally Posted by luj1
Good exploration, shitty combat. Called it.

Problem is 95% of exploration in PB games is combat…there is little in terms of quests, locations, environmental storytelling, in comparison.

They really need to redesign exp scale and give it alternatives, use soft/hard cap system for stats and leveling.

Nah, they have the best RPG design in this style going right now.

Personally, I never found the combat in G1, G2, or G3 particularly 'clunky'. After the notorious stun lock in G3 was fixed, it was fine with me. After a few engagements, I get a feel for what works and what doesn't and take it from there. Adapt or die. Every game is different and has its quirks.

Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty
Problem is 95% of exploration in PB games is combat…there is little in terms of quests, locations, environmental storytelling, in comparison.
. . . .

Say what????

I was exploring this one area in "Gothic 2", and down along the bottom of a cliff was a skeleton, with full armor and a wonderful ring and weapon. The body was hidden a bit. There was no dialogue, no narrator, no journal. But from the position and location of the body it was clear this hero fell to his death exploring that dangerous road above. It would have been easy for PB to not even have this body there, I bet many gamers missed it altogether. But PB excels in this type of exploration and discovery.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Nah, they have the best RPG design in this style going right now.

No denying coming from your quality standards and wealth of experience.

Say what????

I was exploring this one area in "Gothic 2", and down along the bottom of a cliff was a skeleton, with full armor and a wonderful ring and weapon. The body was hidden a bit. There was no dialogue, no narrator, no journal. But from the position and location of the body it was clear this hero fell to his death exploring that dangerous road above. It would have been easy for PB to not even have this body there, I bet many gamers missed it altogether. But PB excels in this type of exploration and discovery.

There are much, much better examples of more provocative, engaging environmental storytelling in other OW games than standard " here lies the corpse of someone who died from X"…Mankind Divided in particular excels at this, through layers and layers in how it ties locations, narrative, quests and setting.

And in comparison mass animal slaughter that makes a bulk of it, hugely outweights anything else…little quest content( which, for the most part is basic: go and kill that animal over the ridge), locations( almost no tombs, abandoned houses, places that tell their own history) or anything that extends the game's lore ( you learn more from simple book stands at beginning in Xardas tower than through most of exploration…for example: where did those pyramids come from?)

This is less noticeable in G1/2 than Gothic 3, simply because their worlds were much smaller in comparison.

Originally Posted by Zephyr
Personally, I never found the combat in G1, G2, or G3 particularly 'clunky'. After the notorious stun lock in G3 was fixed, it was fine with me. After a few engagements, I get a feel for what works and what doesn't and take it from there. Adapt or die. Every game is different and has its quirks.

No, definitely not. All h&s action games trace origins from fighting games and despite different styles, have some basic similarities in how they play out.
Aside from pure technical deficiencies with their games( very weak sound, visual and hit effects), every melee system is a reactionary one and relies on basic telegraphing that is tied to player's reaction time, dodging/blocking/parrying…in PB games enemies attack far too quickly for player to read and react (in comparison to player's animation): this is why you need to roll/move around and wait for them to stop attacking.
For single opponent combat it needs a reliable stagger system ( Dark Souls), for one based with multiple opponents with a clear group rhythm and enemy recovery time, in style of beat-em ups ( Bayonetta)… in PB they all ram up on you and stagger the player to death: that is why you need to "leash them" away from the group to have a good chance.
It is not a matter of how "difficult" it is, instead of how the system functions on basic level…getting "gud"/leveling up only makes it faster to get through.

Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty


There are much, much better examples of more provocative, engaging environmental storytelling in other OW games than standard " here lies the corpse of someone who died from X"…Mankind Divided in particular excels at this, through layers and layers in how it ties locations, narrative, quests and setting.

Oh, there are other examples of engaging environmental story telling in Gothic other than the standard here lies the corpse . . .. I just wanted to bring that one up because it was provocatively placed at its location and added a lot of tension to this quest area.

I think we are having different experiences when we play Gothic. For me there is a holistic realism when I played the Gothic games. When I ran from an enemy they would usually get tired and quit chasing me. When I fled from a non tiring monster and lead it into town the villagers took over- and sometimes they villagers got killed. When I explored the deepest regions of the forest there was always something in there to not only make the trek worthwhile, but to remind me I am not the first.

You also can't steal from somebody's house because usually the local is nearby and will at the very least shoo you off. When shops are closed at night, the owners usually are really sleeping in bed. And what you see as simply mass animal slaughter, I see a human being trespassing in the animal kingdom and doing what he can to survive.

Combat is wonky, no doubt. The graphics both in the Gothic series, Riven and Elex are not state of the art. But PB has never failed me as far as their game world and from my gaming experience, they are unmatched.

Originally Posted by Dajjer
Oh, there are other examples of engaging environmental story telling in Gothic other than the standard here lies the corpse . . .. I just wanted to bring that one up because it was provocatively placed at its location and added a lot of tension to this quest area.

I think we are having different experiences when we play Gothic. For me there is a holistic realism when I played the Gothic games. When I ran from an enemy they would usually get tired and quit chasing me. When I fled from a non tiring monster and lead it into town the villagers took over- and sometimes they villagers got killed. When I explored the deepest regions of the forest there was always something in there to not only make the trek worthwhile, but to remind me I am not the first.

You also can't steal from somebody's house because usually the local is nearby and will at the very least shoo you off. When shops are closed at night, the owners usually are really sleeping in bed. And what you see as simply mass animal slaughter, I see a human being trespassing in the animal kingdom and doing what he can to survive.

Combat is wonky, no doubt. The graphics both in the Gothic series, Riven and Elex are not state of the art. But PB has never failed me as far as their game world and from my gaming experience, they are unmatched.

Then we'll simply disagree on this…while PB definitely have their own "style" in open world genre( and it is a genre, that surpasses "rpg" label), there are various areas they could massively improve in.

I think you guys haven't played too many of this type of games( I had similar opinion first time after finishing Gothic(s), a lot has changed since then.

I still think G2 is pretty much second to none when it comes to open worlds, but that's mainly because it nails the stuff I personally care about:
- No level scaling
- No random loot
- No vast, empty areas
- Fantastic atmosphere
- A feeling that it makes sense. There are farms, fishing boats, mines and so on. A lot of RPGs have settlements and similar that simply wouldn't exist, usually in some region filled with enemies that would have massacred said settlement long before the hero arrives.

When it comes to rewarding exploration openworld, there is no game out there that can beat PB's designs. What PB needs is a serious investor that'll shower them with millions. They can make anything, but they don't have enough funds.

Creators of Binary Domain and similar shallow short crap need to improve. Not PB.

Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty
Then we'll simply disagree on this…while PB definitely have their own "style" in open world genre( and it is a genre, that surpasses "rpg" label), there are various areas they could massively improve in.

I think you guys haven't played too many of this type of games( I had similar opinion first time after finishing Gothic(s), a lot has changed since then.

How many types of RPGs are there like this? I know you want to mention Witcher 3 but IMO that is not on par with Gothic in terms of static world design. No other RPG as far I'm aware is like PB in that regard. That's why PB games are so unique and cult favorites to this day.

They could likely be improved with a higher budget, more employees, etc.. But for the type of experience they deliver they are pretty much their own entity.

joxer here said it much better than I :

Originally Posted by joxer
When it comes to rewarding exploration openworld, there is no game out there that can beat PB's designs. What PB needs is a serious investor that'll shower them with millions. They can make anything, but they don't have enough funds.

Creators of Binary Domain and similar shallow short crap need to improve. Not PB.

Originally Posted by Fluent
How many types of RPGs are there like this? I know you want to mention Witcher 3 but IMO that is not on par with Gothic in terms of static world design. No other RPG as far I'm aware is like PB in that regard. That's why PB games are so unique and cult favorites to this day.

They could likely be improved with a higher budget, more employees, etc.. But for the type of experience they deliver they are pretty much their own entity.

joxer here said it much better than I :

Like I said, Open world, has become a broader term than rpg, of what it envelops( considering gameplay).
In terms of authenticity, PB worlds do not have a fraction of detail as worlds in Assassin's Creed( Yep, that is true…Ubisoft has phenomenal world designers and artists, their problems come from other sources), L.A Noire/all Rockstar games, Witcher I/III, Mafia series, etc.
In terms of richness of lore( tied to exploration) and variety of locales, even less compared to something like TES series.
In terms of world activities, same is compared to Rockstar ( or Saints Row) games( which are almost unknown entity here).
The same is true with world interaction/physics next to Zelda, emergent gameplay next to Far Cry's, traversal next to Just Cause/Mad Max…and there are more and more and more examples.

This is steering away from Elex, but my point is Rpgwatch is a fairly "insular" community ( not meant in offensive term), that has far more "niche taste" covering only a small portion of games on the market…and "rpg" term is far less dogmatic than it was ten-twenty years ago.

They don't have top notch everything, we can all agree on that, but no one does. PB combines a lot of elements and create a unique style though. The elements shouldn't be looked at as individual parts but as a sum of the parts IMO. You're just not going to find an open-world RPG like this that combines all of these elements in the way PB does, and that is why we all still play their games. They also have a rather remarkable cult following for their old series which you don't see often.

I'm glad they continue to do their own thing.