Kingmaker - Preview @Keen Gamer

Keen Gamer previewed Pathfinder: Kingmaker and found themselves absorbed.

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Conclusion

Pathfinder: Kingmaker has some great ideas. Although, the most ambitious and intriguing ones are falling just shy of proper functionality at the moment. Some work yet needs to be done in the area of difficulty balancing. I love the concept of the camping mechanic but with little to explain how its systems work, only to later get punished for soldiering through the system, this is one big area that needs attention. Regardless, <em style="z-index: 2;">Pathfinder: Kingmaker[/i] is absolutely going in the right direction and I know this as, despite its current misgivings, I was absorbed. I wanted to continue the grind and level up my characters and most importantly, I wanted to know what would happen next. Stick around at KeenGamer as we learn more throughout the game’s development.

Thanks Farflame!

More information.

I think the article is rather misleading.

I don't think you can get "landlocked" when your inventory is clear - that sounds more like a bug.

I agree the encumberance can get quite frustrating though - not because its unmanageable but it puts restriction on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution.

With cooking, I noticed my main character often spoils the food when she is fatigued - this perfectly makes sense to me. You still end up eating and resting fully when you spoil the food - the only thing you miss out on is extra buff from eating excellent meal.

There is definitely room for improvement but not in an extent the author describes - for one, I don't think the author has put in enough hours to really explore and understad how the game works. I spent 20hours+ in beta 1, which is just chapter 1.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
I agree the encumberance can get quite frustrating though - not because its unmanageable but it puts restriction on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution.

That sounds like a Pro to me. If you want to carry around lots of heavy stuff you better bring some Brutes as pack mules.

Originally Posted by TomRon
That sounds like a Pro to me. If you want to want to carry around lots of heavy stuff you better bring some Brutes as pack mules.

Well, or an actual pack mule.
Is that possible in the game?

Originally Posted by Morrandir
Well, or an actual pack mule.
Is that possible in the game?

Well, yes, or that.

The weight is a pro for me as well. There should be a price for things. If you want to be a hoarder and loot everything than you will need to consider that. I am a minimalist so less of a problem for me as I dislike clutter even in games.

For me whether I liked or disliked the weight would depend on whether it encouraged more strategic decision making, or if it just encouraged more tedious trips back to town to sell your loot.

Originally Posted by Morrandir
Well, or an actual pack mule.
Is that possible in the game?

Not at this point, but beta testers really want this to be implemented, myself included. It provides players another option - right now, I'm a little sad I can't have both Linzi and Octavia in my party at the same time cause they both have low strength and constitution

Perhaps the stragey is deciding which is more important - lots of loot and fast gold versus having more diversity in characters.

For me I would never pick carrying more loot over having characters I want in the party. That is a choice I can make though. It means I have to be more careful on what I loot - focusing on more valuable items (weight to worth ratio) and leaving more behind.

So the game doesn't force you to limit to just characters that are strong - that is entirely a player choice for wanting to hoard loot.

I have always liked that myself - and one reason I enjoy games that do limit weight. These games are quite playable without having to loot everything - it just means you won't make as much gold. Unless you want to make a lot of selling trips - which is the players decision if they want money that bad.

For me one thing I dislike is the trend to make every game remove all obstacles just to appease everyone - creating very bland games. Options are good. Like I saw in POE that you have the option to limit access to stash. So those who want to hoard every item in that game can … or those who want some enforced limits can restrict access to the communal stash.

I also saw in the Beta 2 for Kingmaker an option to ignore inventory fatigue in the options. Not sure if that is a permanent feature but you can select that and not worry about it as much if it bothers you.

Pack mules are nice but only if there is a steep price for them - otherwise why bother with limiting inventory if you can just grab a pack mule?

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark
Perhaps the stragey is deciding which is more important - lots of loot and fast gold versus having more diversity in characters.

Welcome to the dichotomy that is reviewers today.

They all want all the things and all the features. If its missing something they complain loudly that its missing.

If a game has all the things, they complain its the same as other games that have the things, and its bland and boring etc.

Originally Posted by Wisdom
Welcome to the dichotomy that is reviewers today.

They all want all the things and all the features. If its missing something they complain loudly that its missing.

If a game has all the things, they complain its the same as other games that have the things, and its bland and boring etc.

Spot on!

Damn, not a fan of weight limits at all. I usually will get a mod that removes weight limits, especially in first person games like Fallout 3, but also in rpgs.

Hopefully they will put in pack mules or something for those of us who don't find weight limits fun or strategic. Not sure if this game will even be modded either, unless they have already said so. But a niche game like this by a small developer, I'm thinking that is rather unlikely.

Updated: So I have now read the article. yea, not a fan of "punishing the player" as a game design philosophy. That is a very flawed approach, in my humble opinion. I know there are rpg codex players who love it, but I don't think there are many players who do, on average.

So when reading about how the game has "fatigue" and how the encumbrance system works, ugh. I would find that supremely annoying. Hell, it would probably make me stop playing the game.

If these "survival mechanics" can be tweaked and gotten rid of entirely in an options screen, then fine. But leave it up to the players.

I want to distinguish between general game difficulty and these kinds of mechanics. I think there is nothing wrong with difficult games, of course, such as difficult combat encounters, and a game that really makes you concentrate and spend a bit of effort to succeed. That is all well and good. And old school. I'm talking about certain mechanics, like weight limits and other things, many of which could be put under "survival mechanics", that in my opinion aren't enjoyable, aren't fun, and the difficulty they add is just tediousness, frustration, and boredom.

Anyway, not trying to be a Debbie Downer. On the bright side, I thought what the article had to say about the combat was really good and promising sounding. Also the basic attributes, interface, graphics, and character build system looks very good.

I see both pros and cons with encumberance/fatigue system. I was going to write my impression on it but I think I will wait till the full release as a lot might change by then. All I'm going to say is, I'm loving the game despite some of the flaws in its current state.

Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark
Perhaps the stragey is deciding which is more important - lots of loot and fast gold versus having more diversity in characters.

For me I would never pick carrying more loot over having characters I want in the party. That is a choice I can make though. It means I have to be more careful on what I loot - focusing on more valuable items (weight to worth ratio) and leaving more behind.

So the game doesn't force you to limit to just characters that are strong - that is entirely a player choice for wanting to hoard loot.

I have always liked that myself - and one reason I enjoy games that do limit weight. These games are quite playable without having to loot everything - it just means you won't make as much gold. Unless you want to make a lot of selling trips - which is the players decision if they want money that bad.

For me one thing I dislike is the trend to make every game remove all obstacles just to appease everyone - creating very bland games. Options are good. Like I saw in POE that you have the option to limit access to stash. So those who want to hoard every item in that game can … or those who want some enforced limits can restrict access to the communal stash.

I also saw in the Beta 2 for Kingmaker an option to ignore inventory fatigue in the options. Not sure if that is a permanent feature but you can select that and not worry about it as much if it bothers you.

Pack mules are nice but only if there is a steep price for them - otherwise why bother with limiting inventory if you can just grab a pack mule?

Usual limit of pack mules is that they will not follow you into dangerous areas, and you need to feed them and keep them healthy (that includes that they can die if you bring them close to enemies). Also if you leave them alone for too long something might scare them off or eat them.
If game is just going to add pack mules with 0 downside then inventory limits are pointless.

IF weight limit brings something meaningful to the gameplay - I have no problem with it. Particularly if it eliminates the usual boatloads of crap loot thrown at you in favour of less, but more meaningful crap thrown at you

If it's just an annoying mechanic for the sake being there, particularly in addition of inventory limits - just kill it fire while there is still time.

Ok, so I guess I will share my thoughts on encumbrance/fatigue system now.

The whole encumbrance system is tied to many other aspects of the game.

Each person has individual weight allowance/tolerance determined by their strength. Once you exceed this, your movement speed reduces (in the local map) and if you are heavily encumbered, you won't be able to move. There are other negative impacts like reduced AC.

As you get fatigued/exhausted, your strength and dexterity is reduced, which will affect your weight allowance.

There is also party weight allowance. Once you exceed this limit, your movement speed in the world map is reduced, which means your travel time extends, and if your party is heavily encumbered, you won't be able to travel from one location to another.

Basically you don't want to be encumbered if possible.

The thing is, the travel from one place to another may require several hours - this means, anyone with low strength/constitution will suffer from encumbrance by the time you reach the destination.

What do you then do? Well, you need to rest. Do you have food? Then it's all good, but if you don't (rations aren't readily available and it's not cheap either), then you need to go for a hunting first. Then cook the meal, of course. But when you are exhausted, you aren't very focused on your given tasks, which increases the chance of getting attacked at the camp (before or during the rest) and you won't be able to fully recover. Then you have to go through the same process again (hunt -> camouflage the camp -> cook/eat -> sleep without getting interrupted) until you are successfully rested.

I don't find this a bad thing since it adds immersion and additional layer of complexity to come up with suitable strategy/plan for me, but I can see why some people will find it frustrating.

What I find annoying is though, the restriction the encumbrance/fatigue system places on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution. About third of the companions available in Kingmaker has strength of 10 or less. They can barely equip themselves suitably - an amour and 1 set of weapon (2 set if lucky) is all they can carry, otherwise, they will be encumbered and suffer a penalty in combat. Some companions will join the party encumbered with their starting equipment, which was eye roll worthy. Owlcat readjusted all item weight going into beta 2 - I really wish they didn't.

So, as I said, it has pros and cons - some might find it interesting, some might find it annoying.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
Some companions will join the party encumbered with their starting equipment, which was eye roll worthy. Owlcat readjusted all item weight going into beta 2 - I really wish they didn't.

That is horrible unless there is a story reason where a companion due to some masochistic needs or lifethreatening poison just needs to be overcumbered all the time. But that should be just one such companion. Not more.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
Ok, so I guess I will share my thoughts on encumbrance/fatigue system now.

The whole encumbrance system is tied to many other aspects of the game.

Each person has individual weight allowance/tolerance determined by their strength. Once you exceed this, your movement speed reduces (in the local map) and if you are heavily encumbered, you won't be able to move. There are other negative impacts like reduced AC.

As you get fatigued/exhausted, your strength and dexterity is reduced, which will affect your weight allowance.

There is also party weight allowance. Once you exceed this limit, your movement speed in the world map is reduced, which means your travel time extends, and if your party is heavily encumbered, you won't be able to travel from one location to another.

Basically you don't want to be encumbered if possible.

The thing is, the travel from one place to another may require several hours - this means, anyone with low strength/constitution will suffer from encumbrance by the time you reach the destination.

What do you then do? Well, you need to rest. Do you have food? Then it's all good, but if you don't (rations aren't readily available and it's not cheap either), then you need to go for a hunting first. Then cook the meal, of course. But when you are exhausted, you aren't very focused on your given tasks, which increases the chance of getting attacked at the camp (before or during the rest) and you won't be able to fully recover. Then you have to go through the same process again (hunt -> camouflage the camp -> cook/eat -> sleep without getting interrupted) until you are successfully rested.

I don't find this a bad thing since it adds immersion and additional layer of complexity to come up with suitable strategy/plan for me, but I can see why some people will find it frustrating.

What I find annoying is though, the restriction the encumbrance/fatigue system places on party composition by heavily favouring characters with high strength and constitution. About third of the companions available in Kingmaker has strength of 10 or less. They can barely equip themselves suitably - an amour and 1 set of weapon (2 set if lucky) is all they can carry, otherwise, they will be encumbered and suffer a penalty in combat. Some companions will join the party encumbered with their starting equipment, which was eye roll worthy. Owlcat readjusted all item weight going into beta 2 - I really wish they didn't.

So, as I said, it has pros and cons - some might find it interesting, some might find it annoying.

Two bad things here:
1. Fatigue reducing strength should affect skill checks and combat rolls but not change max encumbrance limit. I really hated this in BG games as well. And BG were very generous with max encumbrance values
2. Encumbered characters should not have their move speed lowered outside of fights while traveling inside a area game loads into. In PnP (where this rule comes from) times passes in seconds, you don't have a DM show you every step you take over a field/forest/whatever. If being slowed comes into effect it is because of tense or dangerous situation, not because of random crossing of a field.
They should always take longer to travel on overland map.

You should post this to where some of the devs are actually reading.

Originally Posted by Archangel
Two bad things here:
1. Fatigue reducing strength should affect skill checks and combat rolls but not change max encumbrance limit. I really hated this in BG games as well. And BG were very generous with max encumbrance values
2. Encumbered characters should not have their move speed lowered outside of fights while traveling inside a area game loads into. In PnP (where this rule comes from) times passes in seconds, you don't have a DM show you every step you take over a field/forest/whatever. If being slowed comes into effect it is because of tense or dangerous situation, not because of random crossing of a field.
They should always take longer to travel on overland map.

There is an option to turn off the reduced movement speed due to encumbrance in the local map - very handy - but you still get immobile if you are heavily encumbered.