Kingmaker - Hotfix 1.1.1c released

Originally Posted by Andrew23
Btw I recently upgraded my HDD to SSD and moved Kingmaker there hoping to speed things up. But if it improved anything, its below my distinctive ability. On the other hand I think after the patch loading times improved quite a bit.

There's no denying loading times are a pain - and they should have done something differently with the Kingdom Managment interface. That's my primary complaint with the game - that you have to actually load into the Throne room constantly to do stuff.

It's not really about the speed of loading data from disk, I don't think. It's more about data population and managment, I would guess.

They keep track of all items and they don't seem to decay. They're also using an absurdly complicated character system - and they're keeping track of all companions in any given scene.

I'm sure they could have done things in a smarter way - but it's really no different from Pillars of Eternity in this way.

They're working with Unity - which means it's not easy to change data loading paradigms into something very different.

All things considered, I'm very, very impressed by the level of care and attention to detail in Kingmaker.

At least, so far. The question is if it holds up from start to finish - which few games do.

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan
The question is if it holds up from start to finish - which few games do.

I'm afraid not. In my opinion, the quality start to decline from late chapter 5, and the end of chapter 6 (+ optional chapter 7) has very questionable content design. THAT was my major gripe with Kingmaker. But overall, I still found it excellent since I spent more than 100 hours before getting to the problematic area.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
I'm afraid not. In my opinion, the quality start to decline from late chapter 5, and the end of chapter 6 (+ optional chapter 7) has very questionable content design. THAT was my major gripe with Kingmaker. But overall, I still found it excellent since I spent more than 100 hours before getting to the problematic area.

Yes, I've heard a few people say something along those lines. I'm trying to be in denial about it - but you're making it hard

Unfortunately, I don't really measure quality in terms of hours spent or "initial fun" (if I did, Alien Isolation would be 10/10 instead of essentially crap) - but in terms of the overall experience.

I probably won't have time to finish this any time soon - but here's hoping they will be adding stuff and tweaking it for a few months, and maybe I won't have to see a bad ending!

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan
Unfortunately, I don't really measure quality in terms of hours spent or "initial fun" (if I did, Alien Isolation would be 10/10 instead of essentially crap) - but in terms of the overall experience.

Let me clarify - what I meant is, the content is solid until the late chapter 5 (I'd say about 95%+ of the game?)

The end game content really "soured" my experience, but not enough to "ruin" the game for me. Overall, I had so much fun.

Originally Posted by purpleblob
Let me clarify - what I meant is, the content is solid until the late chapter 5 (I'd say about 95%+ of the game?)

The end game content really "soured" my experience, but not enough to "ruin" the game for me. Overall, I had so much fun.

That sounds better

Frankly, I tend to rush through the latter part of nearly all games I complete - so it probably won't be that big a deal for me.

I don't know what's wrong with me, but - for whatever reason - I lose patience and investment in most games at a certain point - and then completing them becomes a strange trial of stubbornness.

Thankfully, there are exceptions. I pretty much loved Kingdom Come from start to finish, even if it's full of flaws

BTW, I assume you guys/gals are aware of the excellent mods on Nexus for this, right?

Personally, I absolutely couldn't live without the Fast Travel/Weight mods.

Before I touch that game, I need timers removed mod. Is there any?

Originally Posted by joxer
Before I touch that game, I need timers removed mod. Is there any?

They are still there, and they had me worried at the start but I actually never was rushed to anything.

Originally Posted by joxer
Before I touch that game, I need timers removed mod. Is there any?

Not quite, but there's a "Kingdom Resolution" mod that effectively nullifies the negative effect of 99% of the timers in the game, if you want it to.

As in, you can instantly resolve all the Kingdom events that you usually have to wait for - or skip time for - so you can focus on the other bits of the game.

But, AFAIK, you can't disable the timers themselves.

I'm sure purple can add something here, but - so far - they've been rather mild and not very stressful, once you realise how much time you have to do stuff.

But I know who I'm talking to - so you can spare me the "that's not good enough" reply

I think that timers are important part of choice&consequence design as it forces you to prioritize, for better or worse outcome. Compared to many games where feelings of urgency are only artificial and often without any consequences this is very fresh design in my opinion.

I have conflicting feelings about the timers.

To me, they go counter to the sensation of "free roaming exploration" that I want to have in games like this - but I do agree they add some spice and immersion to the game.

Overall, though, I would probably have preferred they weren't there.

Also, I'm not very fond of the Kingdom Managment so far, but it's certainly a lot more involved than most games that try to do this kind of thing.

Although Im also very fond of exploration and I like to take my time in games, in this case it works quite well for me. Part of the trick is probably that management part works with time scale of weeks and months while exploration part with mere days. So when you are on adventure, travelling and exploring dungeons, the time pressure is rather light. At least thats how I felt it.

I hated timers in XCOM2 and will hate them here. So please, a mod that removes them. A mod that just disables negative effects is okay, but I just don't want to see any of that atrocity. I want to explore something for years, not minutes - it's supposed to be a game, not bus/train chaser simulator. Hopefully.

Originally Posted by Andrew23
Although Im also very fond of exploration and I like to take my time in games, in this case it works quite well for me. Part of the trick is probably that management part works with time scale of weeks and months while exploration part with mere days. So when you are on adventure, travelling and exploring dungeons, the time pressure is rather light. At least thats how I felt it.

Yeah, it's not that bad.

I think my issue is that I have to physically travel back to resolve stuff - when what I really want to do is explore and do the usual CRPG stuff.

I would have done it differently, with the managment being a separate aspect that you didn't necessarily have to be physically present for.

Also, I probably would have done more stuff with physically representing the changes you're making to the Kingdom - but you can't have it all, I guess

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan
I have conflicting feelings about the timers.

To me, they go counter to the sensation of "free roaming exploration" that I want to have in games like this - but I do agree they add some spice and immersion to the game.

Overall, though, I would probably have preferred they weren't there.

Also, I'm not very fond of the Kingdom Managment so far, but it's certainly a lot more involved than most games that try to do this kind of thing.

Originally Posted by Andrew23
Although Im also very fond of exploration and I like to take my time in games, in this case it works quite well for me. Part of the trick is probably that management part works with time scale of weeks and months while exploration part with mere days. So when you are on adventure, travelling and exploring dungeons, the time pressure is rather light. At least thats how I felt it.

Originally Posted by Andrew23
I think that timers are important part of choice&consequence design as it forces you to prioritize, for better or worse outcome. Compared to many games where feelings of urgency are only artificial and often without any consequences this is very fresh design in my opinion.

"Timers" are pretty generous in this game, so you don't actually have to rush exploring or finish quest as much as you think you need to. In saying that, timer was always in back of my mind, which did prevent me exploring freely in a fear the "hidden" timer will expire at the worst time.

But it is tied to lots of C&C stuff, so I can understand why Owlcat implemented it. For one, you guys should have noticed by now some companions won't be available until much later in chapter 1 (or even be locked out for entire chapter 1) depending on how quickly you went after your rival or discover the Temple of Elks.

I understand the importance of timers to a game, really I do. But the way my mind works … its just adds a distraction I prefer to not have in a game. I find myself always checking my time, looking at how many days I have left, worrying about how long it will take to explore.

It starts to were away little by little on the fun so I end up just moving faster, taking short cuts, and not exploring in the leisurely way I like. I find I am focusing more on the main quest and anything time to get it done so my mind isn't fretting over it.

I know the timers are not bad but changing how one's mind works when it comes to feeling like you need to get something done on time, regardless of how long you have, is more a psychological thing and not easily rectified … although I am trying my best to ignore them.

My loading times, at least for the first 3 chapters, haven't been too bad. But then I am used to 30-60 second load times for FO4 and Skyrim due to my heavy mods and graphic presets. So these don't seem that bad in comparison.

Originally Posted by joxer
I hated timers in XCOM2 and will hate them here. So please, a mod that removes them. A mod that just disables negative effects is okay, but I just don't want to see any of that atrocity. I want to explore something for years, not minutes - it's supposed to be a game, not bus/train chaser simulator. Hopefully.

I don't think that there will ever be a mod to "disable" the timers. Time is an important concept in the game which is interwoven in quests and kingdom management. You can't simple disable it or nullify the effects.
For example there are quests where you just get other results when you're solving them quickly. So you need to to touch quest scripts.

I'm with Darth here that I'm somehow torn. I like the additional challenge and immersion but don't like to feel rushed. However in my current playthrough I actually explored everything. It was enough time by far.
I'll have a more grounded opinion after my second run. In my first I had some bugs with kingdom management in chapter 2 which quite screwed my kingdom and made my kingdom really week. So I had to switch to indestructable kingdom in chapter 6.

It's quite brave for a studio like Owlcat to be innovative with a feature like that. As said I'm not sure that timers were the right choice, but being innovative was the right choice.
Together with Larian and CDProjekt (and perhaps Warhorse) they could enhance the CRPG genre as a whole.

That's hardly innovative.
In fact it smells to me like daily reward and doomsday designs on phones. Don't login for a day or let some timer expire and a "very important" thing is gone.

Sorry but I hate it equally as questgivers/questtargets inaccessible while spending time in Narnia unless it's day or night in some games.

I was very doubtful about Kingmaker concept since beginning. In my RPG Im not interested in dating simulator elements, RTS elements, build/construction elements. All these things are done by other games better and in RPG Im interested in something else. That is also the reason I did not back this game and did not have it on my radar really. Im not even sure what made me buy and try the game about week after release. But I was honestly surprised how things actually work in this game and I became really thrilled about it. Im not trying to convince anybody, but this was my experience.

Originally Posted by joxer
That's hardly innovative.
In fact it smells to me like daily reward and doomsday designs on phones. Don't login for a day or let some timer expire and a "very important" thing is gone.

No, that's another concept. The timers in P:K aren't linked to real time, but to ingame time.

The innovation is not in the timers itself but in the general concept that ingame time affects the whole game at quite a large scale. I have not seen that in a CRPG before.