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Default Immersive and non-immersive game engines?

March 5th, 2019, 02:08
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Yeah it does, i've played plenty of games with engines that felt great, where i so wished the game was something else entirely because i felt so immersed with the feel of the engine itself, that it was perfectly balanced in terms of performance and visuals, for example.

If you still don't get it, you didn't experience it, fine, move on.
I'm afraid, to be blunt, it's not that I don't "get it", it's that you're demonstrating that you really don't know what you're talking about.
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March 5th, 2019, 02:20
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I'm afraid, to be blunt, it's not that I don't "get it", it's that you're demonstrating that you really don't know what you're talking about.
Explain how I don't know that i can really like the engine of a game (like i said; perfect balance of visuals and performance, perfect feel of movement), but not having too much interest in the game itself (let's say it's a shooter, these days i don't care for them too much). It's not a thing, really?

Engines are super important for feel, this has been the case since the early days of quake vs unreal, they had their strengths and weaknesses and there were always people preferring one over the other, because of the engine. I'm not sure what they're comparing these days.
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March 5th, 2019, 02:38
That still doesn't make it "immersive", that just makes it a good engine in terms of the things you like.
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March 5th, 2019, 03:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
That still doesn't make it "immersive", that just makes it a good engine in terms of the things you like.
Not sure what kind of immersion you are looking for if it's not "the things you like"?

What ADDS to immersion, what makes it or breaks it, can be so many things and it can be different things to each of us.

I find it interesting that you have so much presence in a thread where you can't share even one thing, just argue for the sake of arguing that you "don't agree". It's really not a thread where you can agree or disagree since it's a topic about personal preference. Maybe try in the next thread.
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March 5th, 2019, 03:16
The problem is, you're stuck on this idea of the game and the engine as two discrete entities. The first thing to understand is that a game doesn't need to have an "engine" - it's not a concept that has any meaning to the way games work, at a fundamental level. An engine, as I said, is just a term for chunks of code that are general purpose, and so reusable - things like a renderer, a physics system, input management, sound playback, and so on. Because these bits of code are reusable, and the target platforms became stable, studios started using them from one project to the next. Some studios started selling their code to others, so that they could save time and money by not rewriting it all from scratch every time.

But then, the studios that acquire that code can use as much or as little as they like. If there are aspects of that code that don't suit the game you're making, you modify or replace them. If the renderer meets 80% of your needs, great - you just modify it to deal with your specific requirements. But perhaps the physics system is not good enough for your vision, so you don't use that part, and write your own, or buy some middleware from another source.

So, an "engine" doesn't dictate anything - it's ultimately just bits of code that you use where it saves time and fits your needs. But, in the end, the finished game is a unique program, with whatever combination of reused code and your original code that you see fit. And depending on the skill of the devs, the look and feel of different games using parts of the same "engine" code can be entirely different. Crucial aspects of the look and feel are determined by things that are different in every case - animations, camera controllers, models, textures, shaders - it goes on and on.

So, do you see what I'm getting at? To say "I like this engine, but not this game", doesn't really make sense. You could say that you like the feel and the graphics of the game, though not the content, but your distinction between the game and the engine is confused.
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March 5th, 2019, 03:26
That game engines can be tweaked and changed into infinity is completely uninteresting for the topic of (released) games and the engine they happen to use.

I'm still talking about the engine if i'm talking about a game i happen to like because they got the engine right, but not the game. You can continue to argue that it could be tweaked and changed and the engine isn't the whole thing, it doesn't really matter for this topic and it's also not something anyone is disagreeing with.
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March 5th, 2019, 03:51
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
That game engines can be tweaked and changed into infinity is completely uninteresting for the topic of (released) games and the engine they happen to use.

I'm still talking about the engine if i'm talking about a game i happen to like because they got the engine right, but not the game.
Well, all I can say is that you're using your own special distinction between "engine" and "game", which might make sense to you, but not so much to anyone else. By all means, carry on, but don't be surprised if others are puzzled.
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March 5th, 2019, 03:57
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Not sure what kind of immersion you are looking for if it's not "the things you like"?

What ADDS to immersion, what makes it or breaks it, can be so many things and it can be different things to each of us.

I find it interesting that you have so much presence in a thread where you can't share even one thing, just argue for the sake of arguing that you "don't agree". It's really not a thread where you can agree or disagree since it's a topic about personal preference. Maybe try in the next thread.
That's funny because it's you who's arguing with everyone else here.

An engine can make a game more immersive if it's used in the right way, but it's still the game that you're being immersed in not the engine itself.

You can argue until you're blue in the face, and keep pretending that we just don't get it, but nothing is going to change that.
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March 5th, 2019, 04:26
edit: you've said your piece, it was of no value to the thread since it had nothing to do with the topic, but thank you anyways.

On-topic: Did anyone play Exanima? This game has a super cool, very physics based engine, very unlike anything else really. The combat is really incredible and i had hours of fun just playing in the arena. Animations can come off as a bit funny at times (like they're drunk, it's getting better though), but the way weight/physics is handled is really something. It's sad the development is going so incredibly slow. This is an engine i would love to see more games in eventually.
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March 5th, 2019, 04:27
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Then tell me, what in this topic makes it important to separate the engine and the game unless we are speaking about recreating the game?
The thread title, and everything from your first sentence in the first post, on down?
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March 5th, 2019, 04:59
You're still talking about changing the engine, like doing a complete overhaul, it's not what i'm saying.

Could Quake ultimately become exactly like Unreal if tons of effort was put into that, yes. Is it something that would be likely to happen? Probably no. Is it an interesting discussion to have in terms of what engine you prefer for immersion, not very.

I think anyone who's played games with the FarCry engine can say it has a different feel to e.g Creation Engine. you can argue until you are blue in the face that the two can be exactly the same, but then i think i'd like to see examples of that and not just talk. realistically a certain feel comes with a certain engine because it's just how that engine is best used, if you like something else entirely then you'd just go with another engine instead. So it's not too interesting i think and it's not like i'm arguing that it's impossible to do.
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March 5th, 2019, 14:24
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
I think anyone who's played games with the FarCry engine can say it has a different feel to e.g Creation Engine.
Neverheard about Creation engine.
Dunno for sure what engine was used in the first FarCry. It's sequels use Dunia engine.
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March 5th, 2019, 16:06
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Neverheard about Creation engine.
Dunno for sure what engine was used in the first FarCry. It's sequels use Dunia engine.
It's Bethesda's engine that they used for e.g Skyrim, Fallout..
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March 6th, 2019, 16:35
I consider ISO 3D/birdy view-engines as generally non-immersive.

Yes, I loved Planescape Torment (Infinity engine) for the story and characters and choices and so on, but even Catacomb 3D (running on the Hovertank 3D-engine, for want of a better name) felt more immersive to me.

But when it comes to different 3D engines … do I really feel immersed in different ways when playing games running on different engines? *shrugs*
I don't think so. While I certainly see differences between engines from different eras (Id Tech 1/Build/Gamebryo/Creation/CryEngine and so on), I'm pretty sure most differences - immersion included - come from the game's design, at least for me.
Example:
Dishonored (engine: Unreal 3) and Dishonored 2 (engine: Void, a variant of Id Tech 5).
Did they feel different in terms of immersion?
No, I was equally immersed due to the fantastic world, the bizarre visuals and the enchanting characters. For me, both games actually looked and felt the same EVEN THOUGH I played Dishonored I on PC and Dishonored 2 on PS4. Perhaps the physics engine makes for bigger differences in immersion than the graphics engine? I don't know. But I really couldn't tell if these games were powered by the same engine or different engines.
Dishonored: Death of the Outsider, on the other hand … well, another Void engine - game, yet it felt not as immersive to me. Why? Because of the engine or the visuals or …? No, because of the publisher's conscious choice to streamline gameplay.
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March 6th, 2019, 19:35
Yeah, about "ISO 3D", i remember playing Baldur's Gate for the first time. It felt like i was playing on one of these carpets you can buy for kids, where there's drawn roads and trees. Like there was nothing interactive on there, just a nice enough looking painting. On the other hand, i find Ultima 7 I and II one of the more immersive games i've played, but that's because they have super interactive environments so it never feels like i'm running around on a painting.

This isn't really a engine limitation maybe but it is what they decided was doable/preferable for these games. It didn't have NPC schedules like the much older Ultima games either, that i was very disappointed with. It's very heavy on the CPU though, maybe the game engine would have come down to a crawl, hard to say.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:27
Of course, anything where you control a whole group is mostly not that immersive. There are exceptions (although still not that great), like some being-god-simulations. And there are some strategy games that tried to use voice commands. These can do somewhat better, but usually fail at other fronts (to be fair, it's not easy to smoothly integrate voice command into a game).

A few years back, I might have mentioned the earlier Max Payne games, as they had fairly good physics for the time.

Nowadays, I like stuff that can surprise me. Repetitive patterns reduce immersion. Hard to find something that is good at avoiding those.
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March 6th, 2019, 20:38
off-topic, kind of, but in these games where you play as a group i like when you can take command of ANY character fully (including leveling up). i find that immersive, i might even prefer that to where you are a solo character, because if you are a group you can directly play with various builds as you see fit.
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March 6th, 2019, 21:12
I keep wondering why, nowadays, "immersion" is being equated with "high fidelity". To me, something is immersive if it engages the imagination. 3D graphics, high polygon counts and shaders, however, achieve the opposite effect: they attempt to convey someone else's imagination, rather than stimulating mine.

As much as I enjoy Witcher 3 and its ilk, I find none of the modern 3D games with their shiny graphics anywhere as immersive as that time when, deep within the bowels of the Stygian Abyss, I took those final, pixelated steps towards the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom. Yes, the Ultima IV engine delivered my most immersive gaming moment ever. And lest anyone suspect me of regarding it through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia: The first time I played Ultima IV was when Morrowind had already been released for years.

And there is something more immersive still, and it pulls it off without any graphics at all: a good novel.
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March 6th, 2019, 22:13
I always say that if a dev can't do proper graphics or if they must do super linear games - do a novel instead (or perhaps an animated movie if they have good artists) because those formats are just so much better for linear story telling than a game. I'm not interested in sitting at my desk reading a linear novel and clicking at things once in a while and with annoying or very poor graphics on my screen. If you can't put the computer to good use, to make it do what its best used for - then use another format. I guess commercially it just works better anyways for these devs to still go with the game route..

Graphics in a RPG needs to be nice to not detract from the experience i think. Even in the C64 days i thought graphics was important, and even in the early days of PC gaming. A C64 game could look nice in comparison to some other c64 game, i could not compare it to future games.. same with e.g Ultima 7 or Underworld, fantastic looking games for their time and their graphics was probably what got me interested in the first place.
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March 6th, 2019, 22:20
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
off-topic, kind of, but in these games where you play as a group i like when you can take command of ANY character fully (including leveling up). i find that immersive, i might even prefer that to where you are a solo character, because if you are a group you can directly play with various builds as you see fit.
Yes, I agree. More control may sometimes works in the favor of immersion. That's what I liked better about Icewind Dale, in comparison to Baldurs Gate: You had complete control over your group. From start to finish. I think this helps you to identify with all members of the group. They never show any behavior that might not mesh with what you imagine about them. And of course, creating them from the start is a natural way to identify with them, too.
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